Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

What if?

100 posts in this topic

Posted · Report post

[quote name='dimbee']And, for the record, I am the son of a preacher and grew up in the church. That will give you a different perspective on organized religion. Luckily, I wasn't forced into following and was given the freedom to form my own opinions, draw my own conclusions and walk my own path. For that, I'll always be grateful.[/QUOTE]

lucky bastard!

My parents would flip as well as most family members and many of my old friends. I just keep it to myself for the most part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I'll try to answer all and not get to "Quote" heavy. Hope you'll forgive :)

Proof that God exists:
I will concede God cannot be proven through empirical evidence; however he cannot be disproved through empirical evidence either. However there are logical arguments one can make.

[Quote]Since it is apparent that the Universe it not eternal, and since likewise it is apparent that the Universe could not have created itself, the only remaining alternative is that the Universe was created by something, or Someone, that: (a) existed before it, i.e., some eternal, uncaused First Cause; (b) is superior to it—since the created cannot be superior to the creator; and (c) is of a different nature, since the finite, contingent Universe of matter is unable to explain itself (see Jackson and Carroll, n.d., 2:98-154).

In connection with this, another important fact should be considered. If there ever had been a time when nothing existed, then there would be nothing now. It is a self-evident truth that nothing produces nothing. In view of this, since something exists now, it must follow logically that something has existed forever.[/quote]

There is more out there for those who Want to find it.

...As to the attributes of God; its hard to present evidence of that to someone who doesn't believe in God. One step at a time :)

As to Fear and Doctors, the point I was trying to make is that Doctors are not held up as fear mongers because they tell you that you're sick. The followers of Christ simply believe that Man was made good and then broken because of the choices that were made. To be fixed, you need Christ. IMO that's not fear mongering and when I am telling people about Christ, avoiding hell is not the ultimate goal.

Also, interesting theory on Galvatron , but he's just the toy that's sitting on my desk at work. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

The fact that the universe is expanding leaves room for a "god" but it isn't evidence for one.

I believed in God for 20 years, I see no evidence of a loving all powerful god.


edit: As for needing Jesus to be fixed. I know many people with "jesus" that are more "broken" then any atheist/agnostic I know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Jesus is the devil. That's why you are all forced to go through him to get to your god.

</pot stir>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

[quote name='Cat']The fact that the universe is expanding leaves room for a "god" but it isn't evidence for one.

I believed in God for 20 years, I see no evidence of a loving all powerful god.


edit: As for needing Jesus to be fixed. I know many people with "jesus" that are more "broken" then any atheist/agnostic I know.[/QUOTE]

I know them too. It seems that, unfortunately, some use that 'relationship' with Jesus as a crutch to do terrible things and then just say they are sorry in church and carry on feeling like they've been forgiven.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

A personal observation from people watching over the years is that religion is a kinder, gentler crutch than drugs or alcohol for many people.

It's an easy way to get out of thinking about the idea that we all die and that's it.

It's a nice communal experience, and there's usually juicy gossip going around.

It can be a great way to get yourself to believe that your opinions are better in some way than others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

[quote name='cookinwithgas']A personal observation from people watching over the years is that religion is a kinder, gentler crutch than drugs or alcohol for many people.

It's an easy way to get out of thinking about the idea that we all die and that's it.

It's a nice communal experience, and there's usually juicy gossip going around.

It can be a great way to get yourself to believe that your opinions are better in some way than others.[/QUOTE]

And there is the control aspect. None of us really control when we are going to die, if we our parents get cancer if our child is born defective. But Christians beleive they can control it with prayer. though we all know that despite what Jesus said about prayer that prayers don't always "get answered" and when they don't they just call it God's will and see it as God doing what is in there best interest. its a win win situation. who wouldnt want an all powerful being looking out for your best interest?!!!

its delusional but comfy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

[quote name='LiQuiD']I know them too. It seems that, unfortunately, some use that 'relationship' with Jesus as a crutch to do terrible things and then just say they are sorry in church and carry on feeling like they've been forgiven.[/QUOTE]

That is truly awful and is a choice that people have. However I would submit that those with a true relationship are changed in a real and permanent way. That of course doesn't mean we're perfect, but being perfected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

[quote name='Cat']And there is the control aspect. None of us really control when we are going to die, if we our parents get cancer if our child is born defective. But Christians beleive they can control it with prayer. though we all know that despite what Jesus said about prayer that prayers don't always "get answered" and when they don't they just call it God's will and see it as God doing what is in there best interest. its a win win situation. who wouldnt want an all powerful being looking out for your best interest?!!!

its delusional but comfy[/QUOTE]

In America, there is a contingent of cultural Christians; it has become something that is passed down from parents to children like those born Jewish. But there are those who truly know Christ and have a changed life. The idea that its comfy here is true. We are very blessed to have the freedom to worship. However those who worship in secret in Iran, China, Cuba, etc. are the ones who would dispute that following Christ is comfortable.

I would say that what is in our best interest eternally is rarely what is comfortable and prayers are always answered; sometimes the answer is "No"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

[quote name='Galvatron']That is truly awful and is a choice that people have. However I would submit that those with a true relationship are changed in a real and permanent way. That of course doesn't mean we're perfect, but being perfected.[/QUOTE]

"under renovation" :)

every christian i know claims they are in a true relationship and of course many of them have seriously different fundamental beliefs. funny how that can happen, anyways...I can say that my christian friends gossip and treat people much worst then my non-christian friends. There is always some kind of drama going on with them where as my group of non christian friends rarely get into any drama and all get along really well (i noticed this when i was a christian) Christian friends are so into themselves and consumed with knowing more about God and "gods work" that they miss out on becoming better people and treating people with respect

again just my observations

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense." -Chapman Cohen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Quotes! Fun!!


Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. Thomas Jefferson

Man created God in his image : intolerant, sexist, homophobic and violent.-Marie

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.- Thomas Jefferson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

[B]One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organization do not constitute a church any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always[/B] - AW Tozer

If there were no God, there would be no atheists - GK Chesterton

How to trap an atheist: Serve him a fine meal, then ask him if he believes there is a cook.

The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a police officer.

The devil is a better theologian than any of us and is a devil still. - AW Tozer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

[QUOTE]Christians don't tell lies they just go to church and sing them - AW Tozer[/QUOTE]

:D I figured you would edit that post and remove the above quote since it contradicts what you've been saying all along. That's just hilarious!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Blindly copying and pasting because you think the first quote is cute. Still hilarious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

[quote name='LiQuiD']Blindly copying and pasting because you think the first quote is cute. Still hilarious.[/QUOTE]

I actually took it out because I thought there were too many by one person. and I liked the one at the top better. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

[quote name='Galvatron']I actually took it out because I thought there were too many by one person. and I liked the one at the top better. :)[/QUOTE]

You so craaazy :smilielol5:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

[quote name='LiQuiD']You so craaazy :smilielol5:[/QUOTE]

I'm not ashamed of the quote and it doesn't contradict anything I've said. I've maintained that I'm not perfect and sometimes the songs I sing in church are not how I'm feeling. I'm not some wide-eyed, well-dressed stereotype of a Christian who always has it together. Each line we sing can be powerful, transforming, and intentional, or it can just float around as a warm fuzzy for an evening and sometimes it does...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Hmm...prove a God, especially one that has the attributes provided by Christianity....

Well, let's start easy. There are three plausible origins for the universe. One, the idea that the universe was created by something. Two, that the universe somehow came into being through its own accord from nothing. Three, the universe is endlessly self-perpetuating and therefore has no beginning. All are equally valid and all equally unprovable. However, logic dictates that only one has the possiblity of proof however vague or insignificant it may be.

The idea of nothing demands that there be no definition and no proof. Even providing the term "nothing" destroys the concept, which in itself is a self destructive paradox. Therefore, within the bounds of physical science, "nothing" cannot be proven.

The idea of infinance is a little bit more complicated, but not by much. The concept of "proof" demands a timeframe. Infinance operates quite outside that boundry. It would be impossible to prove infinance because it is impossible to decide when enough has been proven because there would always be further to go in any given direction.

Which leaves us with creation by a something.

I'll stop it there. I think I've left plenty of holes in my talking points here, so that should be a dandy conversation continuance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

[quote name='ItsNotGonnaBeAlright']Hmm...prove a God, especially one that has the attributes provided by Christianity....

Well, let's start easy. There are three plausible origins for the universe. One, the idea that the universe was created by something. Two, that the universe somehow came into being through its own accord from nothing. Three, the universe is endlessly self-perpetuating and therefore has no beginning. All are equally valid and all equally unprovable. However, logic dictates that only one has the possiblity of proof however vague or insignificant it may be.

The idea of nothing demands that there be no definition and no proof. Even providing the term "nothing" destroys the concept, which in itself is a self destructive paradox. Therefore, within the bounds of physical science, "nothing" cannot be proven.

The idea of infinance is a little bit more complicated, but not by much. The concept of "proof" demands a timeframe. Infinance operates quite outside that boundry. It would be impossible to prove infinance because it is impossible to decide when enough has been proven because there would always be further to go in any given direction.

Which leaves us with creation by a something.

I'll stop it there. I think I've left plenty of holes in my talking points here, so that should be a dandy conversation continuance.[/QUOTE]

This is a great post and it poses great questions. First and foremost, "creation" of the universe is something that is so far beyond human intellect to comprehend that all we can do is guess. Thus, there can't really be a right or wrong answer. To conjecture on the creation of the universe leads one to wonder what "was" before the "creation" of such. (I'll stop with the quotation marks now. ;) ) Wondering if there was something before there was something is a paradox. How could there be something before there was something? It's unable to be comprehended. And if there was nothing before there was something, how was there something in that nothing that created something? What if everything is but a circular something, never starting, never ending? In solely my own opinion, I like to think of everything being similar to a soap bubble- you blow on the bubble, and another bubble can be formed, attached to the original bubble, but still a bubble of it's own. Those two bubble are connected but still separated in their own nature. Bubbles can create bubbles and the bubbles stay attached, creating means of passing from one bubble to another. Bubbles creating bubbles creating bubbles. The question is "what created the bubble" and "what blew on the bubble?" Is it science? Is it godly? Is it something so far beyond me that I can't even think of it?

I think because this paradox is SO far beyond the ability for a human mind to comprehend and extrapolate, it is the [B]easiest[/B] conclusion to deduce that there is some greater power that caused all of this to happen... which brings us back to what [B]was[/B] there before [B]something[/B] was there.

Being an agnostic, I have no idea. I don't have the answers, and [B]no one[/B] does. I simply don't believe the Bible's explanation of creation because it doesn't answer my questions. In no way am I saying it's right or wrong, my mind just won't believe it.

Therein lies the differentiation between myself and a believer: I don't have faith in the story, and I don't understand it enough to believe in the story.

[/deepness]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Repent, he(Jesus Christ) is coming,per God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

[quote name='xPUREBYBLOODx']Repent, he(Jesus Christ) is coming,per God.[/QUOTE]

There you are, I thought you were out shooting doctors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

[quote name='xPUREBYBLOODx']Repent, he(Jesus Christ) is coming,per God.[/QUOTE]

:smilielol5: Doooooooom, GLOOOOOOOM!

Oh, the check's in the mail by the way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

What I don't understand about the whole creation story is if there's a sole identity that engineered everything, wouldn't something have had to create said identity? How could god come from "nothing"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

[quote name='dimbee']This is a great post and it poses great questions. First and foremost, "creation" of the universe is something that is so far beyond human intellect to comprehend that all we can do is guess. Thus, there can't really be a right or wrong answer. To conjecture on the creation of the universe leads one to wonder what "was" before the "creation" of such. (I'll stop with the quotation marks now. ;) ) Wondering if there was something before there was something is a paradox. How could there be something before there was something? It's unable to be comprehended. And if there was nothing before there was something, how was there something in that nothing that created something? What if everything is but a circular something, never starting, never ending? In solely my own opinion, I like to think of everything being similar to a soap bubble- you blow on the bubble, and another bubble can be formed, attached to the original bubble, but still a bubble of it's own. Those two bubble are connected but still separated in their own nature. Bubbles can create bubbles and the bubbles stay attached, creating means of passing from one bubble to another. Bubbles creating bubbles creating bubbles. The question is "what created the bubble" and "what blew on the bubble?" Is it science? Is it godly? Is it something so far beyond me that I can't even think of it?

I think because this paradox is SO far beyond the ability for a human mind to comprehend and extrapolate, it is the [B]easiest[/B] conclusion to deduce that there is some greater power that caused all of this to happen... which brings us back to what [B]was[/B] there before [B]something[/B] was there.

Being an agnostic, I have no idea. I don't have the answers, and [B]no one[/B] does. I simply don't believe the Bible's explanation of creation because it doesn't answer my questions. In no way am I saying it's right or wrong, my mind just won't believe it.

Therein lies the differentiation between myself and a believer: I don't have faith in the story, and I don't understand it enough to believe in the story.

[/deepness][/QUOTE]

Which is a problem that a lot of people have with religion, both on the outside and on the interior. People want things to fit very nicely inside of definitions. However, when dealing in terms of infinance no one definition can ever adequately be applied. We simply are not smart enough to understand, and that scares a lot of people, be it into adhereing only to what can be understood through scientific means or to emotional and philisophical systems because they understand their own thoughts and are comforted by them.

Which is to say nothing about perception, but that's an entirely different kind of conversation altogether.

And questions, oh Good Lordy, I love questions. Curiosity is one of the most valuable traits of sentient life and should never be wasted or ignored. Question everything. Hell, I have begged mathematicians for years to prove to me that two plus two will always, in every instance universally, equal four. Most of them have looked at me like I was insane for even suggesting that it wouldn't, but a few have asked for elaborations and those usually end with them being exceptionally confused.

Taking things as a given is an absolutely horrible way to live, and fundamentally destroys one of what I believe to be the most essential aspects of physical existence - free will. Of course, the fact that the choice was made to accept those givens means that your still fitting in with free will, so it all works out.

As for that bubble theory of yours, I absolutely love the idea. A lot of people like to compare the idea of creation with a painting. This essentially expands that out into a question of "What could be more perfect than a painting that is never the same each time it is viewed?" Where did these "bubbles" come from? Well, that is the fantastic question and after many thousands of years of debate we still aren't any closer to the answer. All again, free will in action.
[quote name='LiQuiD']What I don't understand about the whole creation story is if there's a sole identity that engineered everything, wouldn't something have had to create said identity? How could god come from "nothing"?[/QUOTE]

The age old riddle of the chicken and the egg. The major problem here is that we're not talking about chickens or eggs or anything else within the physical spectrum. To ask "What created God?" is to assume that the idea and function of creation extends outside the realm of the physical, which again is the fault of perception and I'd rather not write that essay right now.

But for an answer to the question, because it's perfectly possible that God has a creator, let's think of this. If the function and heirarchy of creation is unchanged between the physical and the non-physical, then it should also be accepted that the understanding involved in each layer of creation remain the same. No creation can ever give perfect definition to its creator. Again, this fits in very nicely with the idea of free will which would also need to remain a constant (albeit a very inconsistant one). Am I making sense here?

As an example, your children will never fully do justice in explaining who you were at your funeral, and they will have little to no understanding of who your great great great great grandparents were in their lives.

Wow, that got long. I'll stop here. And I still haven't even gotten into why I'm a Christian yet....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites