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Jase

Child Porn Cartoons are illegal, federal appeals court says

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I still fail to see how drawing a picture should be a crime. You're essentially jailing the person for a fantasy. As far as making child porn more acceptable, I highly doubt that will happen. But if such a cause and effect exists, then we need to hurry up and outlaw fictional depictions of all major crimes. Why not start banning violent movies, video games, comic books, and novels? And of course arrest the people who make and consume these products. It seems like you want to punish someone for future, possible crimes that could result from a fantasy, rather than an actual crime in which there were victims.

If you compare what is allowed now to what was allowed 50 or even 25 years ago, the trend is towards accepting more and more things like violent movies or pornography. While there is relatively little danger from a child porn cartoon, there is even less danger of the government going to far in restricting things. And when it comes to protecting young children from sexual predators, I would be willing to err on the side of caution.

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If you compare what is allowed now to what was allowed 50 or even 25 years ago, the trend is towards accepting more and more things like violent movies or pornography. While there is relatively little danger from a child porn cartoon, there is even less danger of the government going to far in restricting things. And when it comes to protecting young children from sexual predators, I would be willing to err on the side of caution.

Good points. But I would argue that while we are more accepting of violent and sexual material, our society is a lot safer than we were 25 or 30 years ago. I don't see the correlation between a more libertarian society and a more dangerous one. However, some people do think that liberty leads to chaos.

I still don't see the connection between outlawing drawings and protecting children from sexual predators. We already have tough laws that do that -- for actual children. But really when you restrict personal freedoms and punish people for fantasies, then you are not erring on the side of caution. I actually think it is a very dangerous thing to do.

"If we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both." -- Ben had it right!

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Yeah, going to prison for drawing pictures of an illegal act -- that's pretty f*cked up, in my opinion. What if you illustrate a murder? Or the rape of an adult? Or draw out any other number of crimes? Should you spend a few decades behind bars in those cases?

You make a valid point here, but at the same time I can legitimately see applying a different standard where it involves children. The government should do everything it can to protect children. The argument can be made that only someone who is fantasizing about doing the act would create or possess this type of "art." Obviously as was stated in another post, you cannot prosecute someone for intent without the commision of a crime, but again, in the case of children there really should be a different standard.

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"If we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both." -- Ben had it right!

FWIW, I seriously doubt Benjamin Franklin would have agreed that stopping people from drawing pictures of children having sex would be restricting liberty.

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Is this really the case? I know that this is the way that the panel has interpreted the law, but I'm not sure it's right.

The one who makes the film is guilty of exploiting the minor.

The one who uses the product is providing a market and enabling those who are doing the exploiting.

In no way should the imagery be the offense itself.

It is interesting that there's been a transference that's taken place. You have a case where a piece of art which enables fantasy of a crime is treated as a crime itself.

I guess video game makers are in trouble because they're enabling people to fantasize about killing each other en masse.

Hollywood, too, for that matter. I've watched a clockwork orange, which contains a depiction of a rape scene. I guess since we have an image of something that would allow me to fantasize about committing a terrible crime, that the image itself is a crime and I should go to jail for watching it.

Good thing kubrick's dead or he'd be in teh slammer right now. We don't want anybody thinking that recording the rape of a woman just to sell more DVDs is by any means acceptable.

It's a slippery slope! :cool:

If you think there aren't positive portrayals of pedophilia coming out of Hollywood and independent films, think again.

Some things to consider...

Worth remembering that cartoon images portraying sexuality in a kid friendly manner have been known to be used as tools by pedophiles to nudge kids into sexual acts. That's something you truly do have to take into consideration when mulling this issue.

I don't think anyone can make a credible argument that art has no effect on society. Few people would argue that movies and TV have had good effects (i.e. arguing against injustice, bringing attention to causes, depicting the plight of the oppressed, etc). Now, with that in mind, do you really think you can credibly say that art can have only good effects? That point isn't just weak; it's ridiculous.

Ted Bundy said before his death that violent porn (depictions of rape, etc) had an effect on him. Studies have shown as well that young men exposed to violent images portrayed in a positive manner were likely to be less sensitive to actual violence against women. Honestly, at this point it's pretty silly to argue that such things are meaningless.

So with that in mind, would anyone try to say that the active consumption of sexual imagery featuring children isn't going to have an effect on someone who chooses to peruse it? See, that's the argument that a lawyer trying to push that child porn is a victimless crime if the kids are willing or that "look, don't touch" is okay will try to make.

Can we honestly outlaw drawings? You certainly can't outlaw deviant fantasies, but you can outlaw material and imagery that is used for the express purpose of fueling such fantasies. And again, go back to the uses that pedophiles make of such imagery. There are indeed solid arguments in favor of it.

With all that said, can it stand up in court? Don't know. It's one of those things that ultimately is probably the right thing to do, but whether or not you can support it with law and precedent is another story.

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I think the solution would be to only consider child porn drawings as illegal if found along with real child porn.

That would protect artistic integrity while getting the sickos.

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I think the solution would be to only consider child porn drawings as illegal if found along with real child porn.

That would protect artistic integrity while getting the sickos.

I'm not sure I could attribute "artistic integrity" to anyone who'd draw something of that sort, but that's a workable solution.

Similar issue: What do you do with fictionalized stories of molestation?

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You can't claim free speech on something defined as child porn. Definition is the question, though, and the "what defines obscenity" debate isn't going to be solved in this forum.

Are you trying to suggest Nabokov should have been arrested?

Valid question, but let me frame it another way.

Should a story about an adult male seducing a twelve year old girl be considered acceptable reading as long as it's well written?

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So, does my mom go to jail for taking a couple of pictures of me when I was in the tub with my brother and sister, or running around the yard butt nekkid. Technically, some perv could wack off to it?

To me this is absurd. Jase said it best, there is no victim. Drunkard is also right, where do we draw the line? If I write a short story about the murder of a fictional president or draw a picture of what I think the next terrorist attack could be, isn't that offensive as well? It is disturbing that people will draw these, but I also fantasize about other women and will often talk sh*t with my friends, but I won't cheat on my wife.

There is a big difference between expressing a fantasy and acting on it. Is there a study that proves that 100% of the people that do this are pedos? If so, is there also a study showing that those that enjoy GTA are cop killers and bad drivers? I honestly do not think that 100% of the people looking at the drawings would act on it nor does it imply that they have real child pornography, 100%. I also would not bet money on it either.

Literotica.com is one of the better story sites that I have found in my searches, the large majority of which are fantasy. There are some disturbing stories of incest, rape, torture, and homosexuality; all of them illegal if acts were committed. Yet I would argue that the huge majority of them, 99%, are fantasy and the readers have never participated in similar acts (well, the argument takes a punch in the face on the homosexuality part).

We have let more and more become acceptable, but does that correlate with a more violent society? We are also more concentrated now than what we were 90 years ago, weapons have advanced, there are different drugs, and mindsets are diffent? Can you really say that we are more violent because of A? Can you even say we are more violent period? Wasn't Aristotle that said that the youth of his time were more disrespectful and violent than when he was a youth?

And I actually do think that Franklin would argue that it is not a crime, no matter how disturbing.

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