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10 minutes ago, GOOGLE JIM BOB COOTER said:

i didn't mean to imply that's what you meant. i just think too much emphasis is being placed on voting and voting specifically for liberals.

if you're going to wait on the majority to act then you're going to be waiting forever. and i think that while there are definitely fascists who would love to see cops gunning down protestors there are also people who don't have the stomach for it. bringing the inherent violence of our system to the surface would force people to meaningfully choose a side instead of treating politics like a game where the worst consequence you experience is your shitty coworker laughing at you because trump won and you voted hillary or w/e.

i mean yeah it would be an objectively good thing if the president was a socialist. im just saying the right wing violence would begin long before that ever happened. again i sincerely hope to be proven wrong but until that happens im not getting bogged down in trying to elect a socialist or a "socialist" when i feel like we're better off organizing, unionizing and training in self defense

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i just think too much emphasis is being placed on voting and voting specifically for liberals.

Idk what's going to happen with the scotus in the near future. But it's looking pretty bleak right about now. Voting rights, anti-discrimination laws, lgbt rights, women's rights, gerrymandering, etc are going to fug us all. And it will not be undone any time soon. I'm never going to agree that there would be no difference if republicans lost. 

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if you're going to wait on the majority to act then you're going to be waiting forever. and i think that while there are definitely fascists who would love to see cops gunning down protestors there are also people who don't have the stomach for it. bringing the inherent violence of our system to the surface would force people to meaningfully choose a side instead of treating politics like a game where the worst consequence you experience is your shitty coworker laughing at you because trump won and you voted hillary or w/e.

Like who? Americans are already conditioned to side with cops no matter how imaginary the perceived threat is. You know this already.

This *sounds* like accelerationism to me. Problem is you are only going to accelerate us towards fascism. That I can promise you. Fence sitters are going to "give the guy a chance" when we elect a real fascist that knows what he's doing. It happened in Germany, it'll happen the same way here.

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i mean yeah it would be an objectively good thing if the president was a socialist. im just saying the right wing violence would begin long before that ever happened. again i sincerely hope to be proven wrong but until that happens im not getting bogged down in trying to elect a socialist or a "socialist" when i feel like we're better off organizing, unionizing and training in self defense

They can't do poo if they live in the margins of society. The same goes for us. And organizing is a no-brainer ofc. Unless you are experiencing real suppression voting requires the least amount of effort compared to the other stuff you list.

 

 

Also sorry you're in the OP dude that's just how it goes :)

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So...what countries are doing it right?

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and I'm not a big video essay guy but this really good and kinda related. Basically made me believe what I do now re: the ballot or the bullet

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Not sure one side owns crazy

Both sides seem to want to take up arms immediately after losing an election or change the constitution.

You guys are made for each other

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8 minutes ago, stirs said:

Not sure one side owns crazy

Both sides seem to want to take up arms immediately after losing an election or change the constitution.

You guys are made for each other

get the fug out of our thread

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I think you're on the right track on many things, and almost all of the crucial discussions facing our country we tend to agree on. As far as the current political landscape, looking at previous democrat immigration policies and rhetoric objectively, even with a Hillary Clinton presidency we were facing yet another long drawn out fight with no real viable long term solutions and the use of ICE with plenty of deportations minus the proliferation of outright white supremacy as a tool. The current growing xenophobic base of the Republican party was directly brought about by the emergence of Trump politics through his candidacy. And the harsh truth is once that door was opened this wave was coming whether we like it or not either in 2016 or 2020 because right now in this country there is absolutely no short supply of stupid ass fearful conservatives who need someone to blame for their own failures and pitfalls.

Where do we go from here? Well I guess we can keep pointing fingers or we can get some real people out in front of the democratic party and move on from the dinosaurs and cozy empty suits.

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Well, I guess when you are taking up arms to shoot me, the giving of a turd emoji does not have quite the same effect.

Hey, Philly did a war movie, he can be your leader.  Bullets or Ballots.  You can form a club

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1 minute ago, TheRed said:

I think you're on the right track on many things, and almost all of the crucial discussions facing our country we tend to agree on. As far as the current political landscape, looking at previous democrat immigration policies and rhetoric objectively, even with a Hillary Clinton presidency we were facing yet another long drawn out fight with no real viable long term solutions and the use of ICE with plenty of deportations minus the proliferation of outright white supremacy as a tool. The current growing xenophobic base of the Republican party was directly brought about by the emergence of Trump politics through his candidacy. And the harsh truth is once that door was opened this wave was coming whether we like it or not either in 2016 or 2020 because right now in this country there is absolutely no short supply of stupid ass fearful conservatives who need someone to blame for their own failures and pitfalls.

Where do we go from here? Well I guess we can keep pointing fingers or we can get some real people out in front of the democratic party and move on from the dinosaurs and cozy empty suits.

You gonna have to show a pic of your weapon to get back in their good graces.

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1 minute ago, SZ James (banned) said:

Idk what's going to happen with the scotus in the near future. But it's looking pretty bleak right about now. Voting rights, anti-discrimination laws, lgbt rights, women's rights, gerrymandering, etc are going to fug us all. And it will not be undone any time soon. I'm never going to agree that there would be no difference if republicans lost. 

don't forget that gorsuch took a spot that was open when obama was president. the democratic party didn't legitimately fight for an appointment and was content to allow the republican party to dictate the appointment process on its own terms. with that precedent and a non-existent opposition party, the supreme court is forever fuged. really the supreme court needs reform (up to and including abolition) more than it needs another liberal justice. it's not good and it's not a democracy if one dude retiring makes an election a life or death proposition.

11 minutes ago, SZ James (banned) said:

Like who? Americans are already conditioned to side with cops no matter how imaginary the perceived threat is. You know this already.

ive mentioned before that ive been pleasantly surprised by the lurch leftward made by liberals here and elsewhere. this wasn't accomplished by electoral gains but instead the horrifying consequences of electoral losses and more generally liberalism. it's more accelerationist than i saw myself being just a couple years ago yeah.

15 minutes ago, SZ James (banned) said:

Problem is you are only going to accelerate us towards fascism. That I can promise you. Fence sitters are going to "give the guy a chance" when we elect a real fascist that knows what he's doing. It happened in Germany, it'll happen the same way here.

we're already there imo. the government exists to maximize profits and maintain order at the expense of the general welfare of its people. it was a process in germany, italy, et al and it's a process here.

 

32 minutes ago, SZ James (banned) said:

 

im currently sitting in a cheap hotel in nowhere montana watching msnbc because watching corporate news is just a thing i do to stay somewhat connected to major news stuff when im away from home. they're heavily covering the abolish ICE thing. earlier the anchor and two liberal contributors talked about it and they all agreed that it's a winning issue for trump and that what liberals SHOULD do is run on being tougher on immigration than trump. that obama more efficiently deported "criminals." now i think we all know that obama deported people at historic rates and he did it with ICE. the corporate media sets the tone and it's easy to see how liberals who tune in would be tricked into thinking that the key to beating trump is to to out-trump the president. or maybe they wouldn't need to be tricked at all??? meanwhile i believe gillibrand is coopting "abolish ICE" and calling for essentially the redistribution and rebranding of its function.

anyway i say all of that to ask: are you sure things would be that much better? im not trying to be all "guy fawkes mask wearing libertarian" here but where are the differences? the democratic party's base is literal millionaires and billionaires. their theoretical base of oppressed people votes out of fear but the party isn't gonna do more than the bare minimum for them while they court and serve the mythical "moderates" (i.e. trump voters)

33 minutes ago, SZ James (banned) said:

They can't do poo if they live in the margins of society. The same goes for us. And organizing is a no-brainer ofc. Unless you are experiencing real suppression voting requires the least amount of effort compared to the other stuff you list.

maybe im being unfair but from what ive seen the left liberals and demsocs (but i repeat myself) are way more tied up in electoral politics and internal party politics than any of the things ive talked about. idk im just not as happy about or satisfied with AOC or cynthia nixon right now as they are. let them succeed in passing meaningful legislation (not simply reformist legislation) and i would be willing to change my thoughts on the matter, similarly to how ive recently shifted toward a more "accelerationist" perspective

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52 minutes ago, SZ James (banned) said:

and I'm not a big video essay guy but this really good and kinda related. Basically made me believe what I do now re: the ballot or the bullet

i can't really watch a 22 minute video right now but i can see the anticommunist symbol on it and im judging it

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someone quantify the trajectory of voters becoming leftist constituents vs right wingers when they turn 18 and determine whether they can swing the balance of power faster than militant leftists can gain potency 

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What do those here on the left think about the movement calling for abolishing ICE? Doesn't seem like many of the prominent dems want any part of it. I wonder why?

Edited by TheRed

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