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Worried about morale this season....


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#76 Vagrant

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 03:36 AM

Winning cures all ills. Football is a passionate game. You go out there with guys and it's as close as some guys get to going to war. You learn to love your teammates, if you're a good teammate, and when it's time to move on it's not always your fellow teammates that have to deliver that message.

The room loved Jake. We know that. The front office loved him too. That's why he had chance after chance to make good before his ultimate demise. I would bet you anything there are still guys in the room that think he's the best guy to lead this team.

These guys are mad, and they have every right to be mad, that their friends are no longer with them. But how mad can you really stay once the ball gets snapped and the guys you thought weren't ready are flying around the ball and making plays? You can't stay mad.... because these new guys are now your brothers too. And if you ever get your head so far up your own ass that you can't let go of the past and give props where props are due, then you need to get your ass off the team. Jenkins, for example. Horrible teammate. Only cared about his own numbers and cheeseburgers.

I would be more worried if all this veteran leadership leaving didn't piss anybody off and everybody acted like it was all cool. These guys like Chris Harris, DeAngelo Williams, everybody else is going to have to answer to these guys. Everette Brown, Charles Johnson.... you better get your mind right and prepare because you're the guys now. And if you think for one minute that you're going to get away with half ass play you can think again, because your presence lost a few guys some jobs. Guys that were liked on the team and guys that have been here a long time.

These players don't hate the new guys, the loved the old guys. The only tension that will exist is in the expectations that our leaders on both sides of the ball will have to enforce on the young guys in order to let them know how to play Panthers football. And i'll be damned if that doesn't sound like a good thing to me.

#77 Urrymonster

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 05:39 AM

I can guarantee you these players are pretty pumped for next season:

Fiamatta, Leonard, Tyler, Hayden, Robinson, Bernadeau, Brown, C. Johnson, Taylor, Connor, Anderson, Jarrett, K. Moore, M. Moore, E. Johnson, Irvin

Even players like Culberson, Cantwell, C.J. Davis, Ivy, Jackson, Landri, Martin, E. Moore, Schwartz, Senn, Warren & Wright will be looking forward to training camp

Why?

Opportunity.

In a league that is often described as a league of opportunity, the 28 guys listed above (which is more than half our roster) are staring their first real opportunity directly in the face. When over half your roster is given an opportunity to finally 'make it' in this league, you will not be disappointed.

The ONLY people who are going to be disappointed about these moves are the guys who have ALREADY made it and some of those will take responsibility themselves and become the 'leaders'.

I am not sure if many have seen this thing happen before, but I have. What can actually happen, is that a sense of unity can be formed in all the young guys, as they now know that the guy who performs, will start. They know that these 'big characters' will not be in the team purely on their experience and leadership abilities, instead of their actual play. They know that this is their opportunity and they are going to work their asses off to be the one who gets it.

I do not feel sorry for anyone of our 'vets'. As much as I love Harris, he is acting like a child, or a huddle poster. He should know, better than anyone, that this is just the beginning of the process. Their WILL be some pick ups, most likely a veteran DE, WR and possibly DT and they will sit behind the youngsters on the depth chart and act as an insurance policy. History also suggests that Fox will look around for some low value trades to bring in more hungry players around training camp, just like we did with Harris.

The most important reason I do not feel sorry though, is because them acting like this is a public knock against any young player looking to move into those vet positions and roles. DWill, Harris and any other outspoken player might just start alienating themselves from the rest of the roster who will more than likely be hungry for their 'shot'.

Why can't people just let the process play out before freaking out, (including the players) as people are assuming that we simply can't win with these changes, when I know from my experiences that these kind of moves can often bring the squad/roster tighter together and generate a better TEAM spirit. Characters can not take on the whole role, now it is up to the team to ALL step up.

Look at the changes properly.

1. Moore out played Delhomme and won us games. That is a positive change. No matter what P55 says, having Delhomme on the books would have given us cap nightmares in the future unless he was starting
2. Moore has lost his worst performing starting OL, being replaced by someone who started multiple games last year and has featured as a back up in the prior year. Worst case is equal performance.
3. Moore has lost Moose, but Moore also lost Smitty late last year and had to cope with Moose and Jarrett, which combination would you choose?
4. Diggs missed multiple games last year. Anderson started multiple games last year, Connor played the equivalent of a starter last year. When Diggs was out, there simply was little drop off in performance. Worst case is slight drop in performance, but considering Davis and Diggs were out together and we performed pretty well...
5. Kemo was not on the roster last year
6. Brayton was only in front of Johnson because of his experience

7. Lewis will be missed, this is one position that someone WILL have to step up
8. Pep will be obviously missed, but paying him $21 mil could have done more harm than good. Regardless we will need a big step up from our DEs
9. Hoover will also be missed. This could be a problem for us, however both our backs are more than capable of playing singleback backfield. We also have multiple players who can play int he fullback position, so if Fiamatta does not step up, then there are other options.

There really are only 3 areas of concern, which you would be a fool to think will not develop before training camp. The rest, our previous years have already shown that the replacements are capable at the worst case scenario.

#78 ladypanther

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 06:45 AM

oh look ladypanther has a bigger sack than most of the men on this board.


This just shows the problem most of you guys have - you your thinking with the wrong body part.

Edited by ladypanther, 12 March 2010 - 07:28 AM.


#79 Captroop

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 08:55 AM

This just shows the problem most of you guys have - you your thinking with the wrong body part.


God gave us genitals and brains, but not enough blood to operate both at the same time.

It's our cross to bear.

#80 Debil

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:04 AM

Maybe it's not damage control this team, and the coach needs. Maybe the team and coach were just too damn comfortable with the status quo, and needed to have a reality check. Sure, losing some of the vets we lost is gonna hurt... and maybe we aren't going to be 12-4 next season. It certainly looks like at least part of the motivation for cutting some of the vets is due to "I'm not gonna pay a lot for this team during the lockout" by JR.

But with the veteran loyalty program Fox subscribed to, and the "aw gee" attitude this team seemed to have when it lost, maybe having the fear of gawd put in them with an offseason like this is just what this team needs.

#81 methodtoll

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:08 AM

I can guarantee you these players are pretty pumped for next season:

Fiamatta, Leonard, Tyler, Hayden, Robinson, Bernadeau, Brown, C. Johnson, Taylor, Connor, Anderson, Jarrett, K. Moore, M. Moore, E. Johnson, Irvin

Even players like Culberson, Cantwell, C.J. Davis, Ivy, Jackson, Landri, Martin, E. Moore, Schwartz, Senn, Warren & Wright will be looking forward to training camp

Why?

Opportunity.

In a league that is often described as a league of opportunity, the 28 guys listed above (which is more than half our roster) are staring their first real opportunity directly in the face. When over half your roster is given an opportunity to finally 'make it' in this league, you will not be disappointed.

The ONLY people who are going to be disappointed about these moves are the guys who have ALREADY made it and some of those will take responsibility themselves and become the 'leaders'.

I am not sure if many have seen this thing happen before, but I have. What can actually happen, is that a sense of unity can be formed in all the young guys, as they now know that the guy who performs, will start. They know that these 'big characters' will not be in the team purely on their experience and leadership abilities, instead of their actual play. They know that this is their opportunity and they are going to work their asses off to be the one who gets it.

I do not feel sorry for anyone of our 'vets'. As much as I love Harris, he is acting like a child, or a huddle poster. He should know, better than anyone, that this is just the beginning of the process. Their WILL be some pick ups, most likely a veteran DE, WR and possibly DT and they will sit behind the youngsters on the depth chart and act as an insurance policy. History also suggests that Fox will look around for some low value trades to bring in more hungry players around training camp, just like we did with Harris.

The most important reason I do not feel sorry though, is because them acting like this is a public knock against any young player looking to move into those vet positions and roles. DWill, Harris and any other outspoken player might just start alienating themselves from the rest of the roster who will more than likely be hungry for their 'shot'.

Why can't people just let the process play out before freaking out, (including the players) as people are assuming that we simply can't win with these changes, when I know from my experiences that these kind of moves can often bring the squad/roster tighter together and generate a better TEAM spirit. Characters can not take on the whole role, now it is up to the team to ALL step up.

Look at the changes properly.

1. Moore out played Delhomme and won us games. That is a positive change. No matter what P55 says, having Delhomme on the books would have given us cap nightmares in the future unless he was starting
2. Moore has lost his worst performing starting OL, being replaced by someone who started multiple games last year and has featured as a back up in the prior year. Worst case is equal performance.
3. Moore has lost Moose, but Moore also lost Smitty late last year and had to cope with Moose and Jarrett, which combination would you choose?
4. Diggs missed multiple games last year. Anderson started multiple games last year, Connor played the equivalent of a starter last year. When Diggs was out, there simply was little drop off in performance. Worst case is slight drop in performance, but considering Davis and Diggs were out together and we performed pretty well...
5. Kemo was not on the roster last year
6. Brayton was only in front of Johnson because of his experience

7. Lewis will be missed, this is one position that someone WILL have to step up
8. Pep will be obviously missed, but paying him $21 mil could have done more harm than good. Regardless we will need a big step up from our DEs
9. Hoover will also be missed. This could be a problem for us, however both our backs are more than capable of playing singleback backfield. We also have multiple players who can play int he fullback position, so if Fiamatta does not step up, then there are other options.

There really are only 3 areas of concern, which you would be a fool to think will not develop before training camp. The rest, our previous years have already shown that the replacements are capable at the worst case scenario.


Thank You! Someone needs to tell these conspiracy doomsayers this!

#82 MadHatter

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:15 AM

It surely is salary dumping under the guise of getting younger and the ruse has apparently worked on some of you. The issue isn't getting younger and letting guys step up so much as it is dismantling the veteran leadership all at once. We have rebuilt at positions and turned over veterans with younger guys just like we did with Morgan by bringing in Beason. But we never made so many wholesale changes at once or expected so many inexpereinced new guys to step up all at the same time. Guys like Beason will be a leader but guys like Smith won't. He is a locker romm problem not a solution. Even now veterans like Williams and Harris are questioning these moves. That will divide the locker room not join it. And the reality is that a radical apporach wasn't necessary. We finished winning 4 out of the last 5. Our defense and offense were clicking. We could have gotten rid of Jake and Kemo for example without a big issue. But instead we went on a cutting spree and got rid of everyone over 30 save 3 players. We were already one of the youngest teams in the league.

Should we have made some changes, sure. But anyone can see this was alot more than getting young. This was dumping salaries and almost guaranteeing Fox will be a lame duck coach.


You have made up your mind that the sky is falling and this is a conspiracy by JR to tank the season. Anyone who thinks that JR would put the NFL above his own franchise knows nothing about the man.

#83 Guest_DrewBreesIsGod_*

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:19 AM

I wouldn't worry about Moral. This is the first thing Sean Payton did when he arrived at N.O. It's the first thing Parcells does when he arrives at a place. It's the first thing Holmgren did when he arrived at Cleveland. Clean house. Make everyone nervous for their job. Make everyone feel like they have to earn their job EVERY DAY. I think this is a genius move by Richardson. Either you sink or swim as a player in this type of deal. Love it!

#84 MadHatter

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:19 AM

I can guarantee you these players are pretty pumped for next season:

Fiamatta, Leonard, Tyler, Hayden, Robinson, Bernadeau, Brown, C. Johnson, Taylor, Connor, Anderson, Jarrett, K. Moore, M. Moore, E. Johnson, Irvin

Even players like Culberson, Cantwell, C.J. Davis, Ivy, Jackson, Landri, Martin, E. Moore, Schwartz, Senn, Warren & Wright will be looking forward to training camp

Why?

Opportunity.

In a league that is often described as a league of opportunity, the 28 guys listed above (which is more than half our roster) are staring their first real opportunity directly in the face. When over half your roster is given an opportunity to finally 'make it' in this league, you will not be disappointed.

The ONLY people who are going to be disappointed about these moves are the guys who have ALREADY made it and some of those will take responsibility themselves and become the 'leaders'.

I am not sure if many have seen this thing happen before, but I have. What can actually happen, is that a sense of unity can be formed in all the young guys, as they now know that the guy who performs, will start. They know that these 'big characters' will not be in the team purely on their experience and leadership abilities, instead of their actual play. They know that this is their opportunity and they are going to work their asses off to be the one who gets it.

I do not feel sorry for anyone of our 'vets'. As much as I love Harris, he is acting like a child, or a huddle poster. He should know, better than anyone, that this is just the beginning of the process. Their WILL be some pick ups, most likely a veteran DE, WR and possibly DT and they will sit behind the youngsters on the depth chart and act as an insurance policy. History also suggests that Fox will look around for some low value trades to bring in more hungry players around training camp, just like we did with Harris.

The most important reason I do not feel sorry though, is because them acting like this is a public knock against any young player looking to move into those vet positions and roles. DWill, Harris and any other outspoken player might just start alienating themselves from the rest of the roster who will more than likely be hungry for their 'shot'.

Why can't people just let the process play out before freaking out, (including the players) as people are assuming that we simply can't win with these changes, when I know from my experiences that these kind of moves can often bring the squad/roster tighter together and generate a better TEAM spirit. Characters can not take on the whole role, now it is up to the team to ALL step up.

Look at the changes properly.

1. Moore out played Delhomme and won us games. That is a positive change. No matter what P55 says, having Delhomme on the books would have given us cap nightmares in the future unless he was starting
2. Moore has lost his worst performing starting OL, being replaced by someone who started multiple games last year and has featured as a back up in the prior year. Worst case is equal performance.
3. Moore has lost Moose, but Moore also lost Smitty late last year and had to cope with Moose and Jarrett, which combination would you choose?
4. Diggs missed multiple games last year. Anderson started multiple games last year, Connor played the equivalent of a starter last year. When Diggs was out, there simply was little drop off in performance. Worst case is slight drop in performance, but considering Davis and Diggs were out together and we performed pretty well...
5. Kemo was not on the roster last year
6. Brayton was only in front of Johnson because of his experience

7. Lewis will be missed, this is one position that someone WILL have to step up
8. Pep will be obviously missed, but paying him $21 mil could have done more harm than good. Regardless we will need a big step up from our DEs
9. Hoover will also be missed. This could be a problem for us, however both our backs are more than capable of playing singleback backfield. We also have multiple players who can play int he fullback position, so if Fiamatta does not step up, then there are other options.

There really are only 3 areas of concern, which you would be a fool to think will not develop before training camp. The rest, our previous years have already shown that the replacements are capable at the worst case scenario.


Great post.

The thing that all of the doomsday crew are forgetting is that the roster is not yet complete.

I assure you we will sign a vet DE...wiether it is re-signing Brayton or someone of equivalent talent.

I also would not be surprised if we signed a WR in the 2nd wave of FA...after teams make cuts to make room for their draft picks.

Maybe i am being too much of an optimist, but I still think that Leonard, Tyler, and Irvin are just as good as Kemo and Lewis. We lost Kemo last season and replaced him with a 36 yo guy off the street...that had not played for 2 years.

I am optimistic about the upcoming season, but am tempering that with nervousness.

We will not lack in talent...little dropoff to what we had (except fo rPep). However, the jetisoning of vets has me a little worried about leadership and chemistry.

#85 turnmyleftheadphoneup

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:28 AM

i don't get it... a few seasons ago, people were bitching about Fox not getting younger players in here. now that he's actually doing it, people are freaking out... just because hoover was cut, doesn't mean our running game is going to falter. i've seen the comparisons b/n hoover and fiammetta, and the differences are very few in between.

look, there's not gonna be a lockout for 2011 or whenever. owners need the money in this economy. players need the money. hell, players need the game. and fans would go stir crazy if there were no football for an entire year. so stop with all that nonsense.

yeah, a bunch of vets were cut. only two deserved to stay (D. Lewis, and B. Hoover). of the two that stayed, neither cannot be replaced with younger, fresher legs. so i don't see what the big deal is. yeah, some leadership will be missing, but the other guys will have to step up and play bigger roles in leadership, which i believe a few of these grown men can do. and it's not like moore is a scrub rookie... he's been in the league for a few years now. been in our system, he knows the game now, and i think our team will be just fine.

#86 Panthro

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:31 AM

I'm worried about Morales...

#87 carolinanimal

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:36 AM

i think it all comes down to this. i doesnt matter how much "heart" you have or how "hungry" you are or you just need to "step up" whatever buzz words that you can come up with. it is all about talent. that combined with experience that makes a good player. this is what seperates the average guys from the great players. it is not so easy just to say "step up" to some players. they may or may not have the talent level to take it to the next level or experience for that matter. that is gained OVER TIME. that is why vets are important there experience tempered with youths talent makes for a dangerous combination in any group.
also just because we say someone has to step up doesnt mean they will.
also these young guys havent "earned" anything. they were basically handed the job. they didnt have to beat out a vet to get it. they are just coming of injured reserve(which is another issue in itself) to a starting spot.
People are looking at the loss of the vets in the wrong way. i keep seeing everyone break it down individually. But we need to look at there loss as a whole. individually they may not have been probowlers, but what team has that many probowlers anyway?. but collectively their experience combined with their skills, help us out tremendously last year. People act like we drafted tank tyler and leonard and they grew up in our system. they havent. not saying they wont get better or arent any good. but to expect a line made up of inexperience players with barely a years starting experience between them to be dominant is crazy. i know young guys need a shot but most teams dont give there guys a shot like this. what teams do you know of that have dump one whole unit and given it to rookies or guys with less than a years experience all together? not many i gaurantee you that.

#88 Cyberjag

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:38 AM

It surely is salary dumping under the guise of getting younger and the ruse has apparently worked on some of you. The issue isn't getting younger and letting guys step up so much as it is dismantling the veteran leadership all at once. We have rebuilt at positions and turned over veterans with younger guys just like we did with Morgan by bringing in Beason. But we never made so many wholesale changes at once or expected so many inexpereinced new guys to step up all at the same time. Guys like Beason will be a leader but guys like Smith won't. He is a locker romm problem not a solution. Even now veterans like Williams and Harris are questioning these moves. That will divide the locker room not join it. And the reality is that a radical apporach wasn't necessary. We finished winning 4 out of the last 5. Our defense and offense were clicking. We could have gotten rid of Jake and Kemo for example without a big issue. But instead we went on a cutting spree and got rid of everyone over 30 save 3 players. We were already one of the youngest teams in the league.

Should we have made some changes, sure. But anyone can see this was alot more than getting young. This was dumping salaries and almost guaranteeing Fox will be a lame duck coach.


We won't need big-time leadership on offense, so you don't need to worry about Smitty not stepping up there. Fiametta may not be as good as Hoover, but with a healthy Smitty and Williams, along with getting Gross and Otah back, Moore should be able to move the ball. He's going to have a great line and *probably* more targets than Jake did last year. I'm saying that based on an assumption that the Front Office gets some more WR talent in the offseason.

As a reminder, with a patchwork OL, no Williams, and with Smitty spending some time out injured, Moore completed 62% of his passes and posted a rating in the 90s. That was against some decent defenses as well.

But on Defense there's every reason to be concerned. I don't mind cutting Diggs or Kemo, I'm skeptical that they would have kept their starting jobs anyway. It sucks that we lost Peppers, we can't replace him. I think Lewis would have been a good influence to have. I liked Brayton too. But they're gone, so we have to look at what's left.

At DE we have two starters who should be able to contribute. They won't be feared, but neither should be easily exploited. Neither showed up as inadequate at any point in the season last year, and both get a decent press. At DT I have high hopes for Leonard (I think we disagree there), and the wild card is at the UT position. Fortunately, it's a LOT easier to find quality help at that position. I don't know what the answer is, but I have enough faith in our DL coach to believe that we'll get SOMETHING of a pass rush.

The Defensive Line is the weak link for sure. Linebackers get Davis back, and with him and Beason we could line up Jase on the strong side and still have one of the better units in the league. The Secondary is solid and deep for the first time in the Fox era. It's the line that's an issue, only the line. I wouldn't expect it to be a strength, but I don't think that we'll lay down and let teams move the ball at will against us either.

And really, even with Peppers and Lewis, has the line been considered a strength since Jenkins left?

Turnover like this isn't unprecedented in the NFL, turnover like this isn't common, but it's not unusual. And the results are not always bad, nor are they always good. You can go read your stories, I'll read mine (check out the Rams defensive changes in 2000--they cut NINE defensive starters and went from the 23rd ranked defense to the 3rd best--that's not a typo).

We've got a lot of turnover, and it's quite obvious that some of them were salary decisions (Peppers, Kemo). Some were not (Delhomme, Hoover). Some, you just don't know why yet. But there's no way that the team is being set up to lose. And there's no way that the team morale in August will suffer as a result of what happens in February. If it does, then the people who let it get to them will be in next years' rounds of cuts while those who outplayed them enjoy their starting positions. And give Fox some credit. He's not a bad coach all of the sudden, is he?

Really, the whole premise of this thread is worthy of ESPN.

#89 carolinanimal

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:40 AM

we are not a "doom" crew. but can you honestly say with all the experience we lost we are a better team right now? all the experts even our own beat writers recognize this. you guys act like all of a sudden we got a probowl roster on our hands. we just refuse to drink the koolaid and are not on the "YEAH!!! WE CUT DELHOMME! EVERYTHING IS FINE" high. we are not saying that we will be 1-15 agian, but to act like we are a team that is set to be a playoff threat is crazy.

#90 Cyberjag

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Posted 12 March 2010 - 09:44 AM

we are not a "doom" crew. but can you honestly say with all the experience we lost we are a better team right now? all the experts even our own beat writers recognize this. you guys act like all of a sudden we got a probowl roster on our hands. we just refuse to drink the koolaid and are not on the "YEAH!!! WE CUT DELHOMME! EVERYTHING IS FINE" high. we are not saying that we will be 1-15 agian, but to act like we are a team that is set to be a playoff threat is crazy.


We are not a better team. But we have more potential at most positions, and the offseason is not over yet.

Do you think that the offense will be worse?


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