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Mr. Scot

Tanking the season

165 posts in this topic

I'm not concerned about the talent of the veteran players we've lost, I'm worried about a leadership void that may have been created by losing so many at once... but such is life in the NFL and we've already got guys like Beason stepping up.

I agree that I think it's absurd people have decided the Panthers are in rebuilding mode based on those releases for all the reasons the OP stated. For all we know, the young guys that are gonna get a chance this year like Tony Fiametta, Dan Connor, Louis Leonard and Tank Tyler are MAJOR upgrades over the veterans they are replacing.

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Fiametta only played in 10 games last year- less than Hoover and suffered a major concussion which has to be a bigger concern when your job is described as being a battering ram. Sutton came in out of necessity when Fiametta couldn't play. Not only can't he play as well, he hasn't shown he can stay healthy. Fullback by committee may be what happens but it rarely is preferable to finding a consistent performer.

Diggs was solid and consistent. Sure we can say that Anderson and Conor are better but if they were, they would have played instead of being backups. Connor may be fine but he is still coming off an injury that often takes 2 years to fully recover and does effect your speed and lateral movement. just saying.............

As for Kemo- ever since he got hurt in 2008 and throughout 2009 our run defense was significantly worse than when Kemo was in there. Louis played 1 game and went on IR and may have issues who knows. But clearly no matter who we brought in, they were a downgrade from Kemo.

Lewis was clearly our best interior linemen and had less sacks than usual because he had to play more read and react rather than penetrate because the middle was suspect without Kemo. Irvin, Tyler and whoever else will have to work very hard to match Lewis's production.

So far Moose was the starter because no one else was able to do the job. We didn't find a replacement for Moose the first time we got rid of him so we brought him back. Hopefully we find his replacement this time but our history at doing that is suspect.

The reality is that with the exception of Moore, no other position is distinctly better off. There will be guys who step up and those who don't. But to say we are better right now is drinking something a lot stronger than Koolaid.:D

When hoover was gone we still managed 144 yds a game. So obviosuly FB committe or sutton, whoever managd to do pretty well. So hoover isnt a big loss.

Lewis was average at best and should strictly be rotational. Also by saying how good Lewis was, you show that Louis and company could be just as good. Lewsi came in as a bust who was cut by the rams. If he can just come in and do well, why can't the rest who are under similar circumstances.

Bottom line all the players we had were solid at best. So while no, its not for certain they can be replaced, it's not like it would be that difficult to fill the void.

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When hoover was gone we still managed 144 yds a game. So obviosuly FB committe or sutton, whoever managd to do pretty well. So hoover isnt a big loss.

Lewis was average at best and should strictly be rotational. Also by saying how good Lewis was, you show that Louis and company could be just as good. Lewsi came in as a bust who was cut by the rams. If he can just come in and do well, why can't the rest who are under similar circumstances.

Bottom line all the players we had were solid at best. So while no, its not for certain they can be replaced, it's not like it would be that difficult to fill the void.

I understand you believe everything is fine but you haven't adrressed any of my issues. Fiametta was hurt more than Hoover so how was he an upgrade? if you are going to use a rushing stat use yards per carry not yards per game. total yards can be totally misleading and is based on how many times you run not how effective you were when you ran.

Lewis had one of his poorer years largely due to Kemo being hurt and he still had 41 tackles. Leonard Louis played in 2 game and Tyler played in 6 with less success than Lewis. Lets also remind folks neither have signed their tender as of today so they aren't even on our roster. Upgrades based on what? More like wishful thinking........

Our players weren't solid across the board last year and this crop who have to step up are even more suspect excluding Moore and perhaps Anderson/Connor. Anyone who would declare this group better than last year are more than optimistic, they are blinded by those rosy colored glasses. Could it work out? Anything is possible but many of them have a lot of improvement to make before they can even replace who we lost let alone be an upgrade.

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i like fox, and i think he will be fine. nobody thouht he would take a 1 - 15 team to the superbowl in 2 years either. i think fox will lead us to the playoffs this year, and be extended

you may like Fox...but obviously what Fox is and does....hasn't proven to be enough for Jerry to back him. Seriously, name the last coach that was put in Fox's current situation that ended up getting an extension and remaining w/ a team?

Jerry is done with that era of Carolina football. 2010 is just about business and getting this team ready for some serious football post Fox. Under no logic is that claiming a team is tanking it or trying to lose.

You guys are banking on Fox doing something this year in an enviroment where Jerry is going to make it very hard for him to do such....and that is part of Jerry running a good business.

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Panthers Vs Eagles two teams adding through subtraction... NFC championship rematch maybe?

In 2013, 2012 maybe if no lockout. Both are planning for the future and not the present, though hoping for the best in the here and now.

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Fiametta only played in 10 games last year- less than Hoover and suffered a major concussion which has to be a bigger concern when your job is described as being a battering ram. Sutton came in out of necessity when Fiametta couldn't play. Not only can't he play as well, he hasn't shown he can stay healthy. Fullback by committee may be what happens but it rarely is preferable to finding a consistent performer.

Yet Fiametta has not had the cumulative pounding that Hoover has taken here. And while we all like to think of Hoover like he used to be, the continuous pounding he has taken is starting to catch up to him. And while I agree that Sutton only came in out of necessity, and really isn't built to be a full time FB, he did show that he can come in and do well in a pinch. No doubt that FB by committee is not ideal, but neither is an aging FB in the process of breaking down that has become undependable. So based on the effect both options would have on the team, I'd say it's basically a push.

Diggs was solid and consistent. Sure we can say that Anderson and Conor are better but if they were, they would have played instead of being backups. Connor may be fine but he is still coming off an injury that often takes 2 years to fully recover and does effect your speed and lateral movement. just saying.............

Solid and consistent is another way of saying average. And we've seen enough out of both Anderson and Connor to say that they can at least be average players. And ACL's usually don't take two years to come back from anymore. Players are typically healed within 6-7 months from the time of the surgery, but it's the strengthening of the muscles that extends most recovery past that point. So, physically, there is no reason to think Connor won't be 100% this year. And with the medical and rehabilitation improvements, most players don't lose much of their speed or lateral movement anymore. Therefore, I think Connor is more than able to give us at least what Diggs did. Anderson might too, but I see him more as a WLB, so likely will continue to back up Davis.

As for Kemo- ever since he got hurt in 2008 and throughout 2009 our run defense was significantly worse than when Kemo was in there. Louis played 1 game and went on IR and may have issues who knows. But clearly no matter who we brought in, they were a downgrade from Kemo.

There were a lot more factors going into our struggles against the run than just losing Kemo. For instance, in 2008, we not only lost Kemo, but Lewis had serious shoulder problems and missed time as well, and we had to rely on PS scrub Hayden to start. In 2009, we were changing to a new defense and lost Kemo once we got to camp, so there weren't many immediate options to replace him available.

Don't get me wrong, Kemo was an important part of our run defense, but really, all he did was take up space and blockers, but little else. And while I don't think Leonard will give us what Kemo did against the run, he evens things up with his versatility and ability to play the ball better than Kemo, as well as get more push up the middle. Like I said, neither are world beaters, but I don't think we lose much by going with Leonard either. Not to mention that there is a very real chance that Kemo will never be the same player again after his achilles tear, so whatever he gave us before might be a moot point in this conversation.

Lewis was clearly our best interior linemen and had less sacks than usual because he had to play more read and react rather than penetrate because the middle was suspect without Kemo. Irvin, Tyler and whoever else will have to work very hard to match Lewis's production.

Is saying Lewis was our best interior lineman really saying all that much? He was solid, but that is all. That's why most everyone here felt he was a better fit as a backup playing in a rotation. And while I agree that currently Lewis is better than the guys we will replace him with, saying they will have to work very hard to match his production is a bit of an overstatement. His production was average, and like with the other positions we're talking about, the new guys should be able to provide average production...but unlike Lewis, they have the the potential to give much more.

For the record, I feel we still need a starting caliber DT since none of the guys we have have proven themselves to be anything but "just guys" (although I think Irvin has a lot more potential than many give him credit for)...however, I feel the exact same way about Lewis and Kemo. Which is why I don't think losing either makes us much, if any, worse than we were before. DT was alway a position in need of a major upgrade.

So far Moose was the starter because no one else was able to do the job. We didn't find a replacement for Moose the first time we got rid of him so we brought him back. Hopefully we find his replacement this time but our history at doing that is suspect.

No arguement here. We absolutely must find a decent #2...and possibly a #3 as well.

The reality is that with the exception of Moore, no other position is distinctly better off. There will be guys who step up and those who don't. But to say we are better right now is drinking something a lot stronger than Koolaid.:D

I agree that no position is distinctly better than it was before, but also no position (with the exception of DE) is distinctly worse than it was before. But, dropping the guys we did doesn't change our team needs one bit, IMO. I still see WR and DT as primary needs since we need guys that can potentially start. DE, LB, and QB are also high priority since we need to add depth there.

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Tanking the season = Keeping Delhomme on the roster

I think people have a reason to be optimistic and pessimistic about the upcoming season so far. Very risky move. Youth movement was probably foreshadowed at the end of the season speech Fox gave the players saying "Alot of players that shouldn't have played got to play." or something like that. Whether we're better or not, this upcoming season...we won't be burying any players which is a fatal flaw of Fox. I really believe that youth movement came from JR and Morrison.

I do agree with CRA that this season, JR is looking past it which I don't blame him one bit. It is a "it is what it is" type of season. If we do good, great. If we do bad, sucks. It was time for a change though and we made it.

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I understand you believe everything is fine but you haven't adrressed any of my issues. Fiametta was hurt more than Hoover so how was he an upgrade? if you are going to use a rushing stat use yards per carry not yards per game. total yards can be totally misleading and is based on how many times you run not how effective you were when you ran.

Lewis had one of his poorer years largely due to Kemo being hurt and he still had 41 tackles. Leonard Louis played in 2 game and Tyler played in 6 with less success than Lewis. Lets also remind folks neither have signed their tender as of today so they aren't even on our roster. Upgrades based on what? More like wishful thinking........

Our players weren't solid across the board last year and this crop who have to step up are even more suspect excluding Moore and perhaps Anderson/Connor. Anyone who would declare this group better than last year are more than optimistic, they are blinded by those rosy colored glasses. Could it work out? Anything is possible but many of them have a lot of improvement to make before they can even replace who we lost let alone be an upgrade.

The yards per carry was over 5 yds. Im not saying we have a upgrade, what Im saying is regardless of who is there, we have proven we can run. So wether Fimmatea and sutton or both do great or not, its not like the run game will suffer.

I never said these are definte upgrades. The point Im making is all the players we released werent anything above average, so its not hard to assume that theres a good chance of these players matching the talent.

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Yet Fiametta has not had the cumulative pounding that Hoover has taken here. And while we all like to think of Hoover like he used to be, the continuous pounding he has taken is starting to catch up to him. And while I agree that Sutton only came in out of necessity, and really isn't built to be a full time FB, he did show that he can come in and do well in a pinch. No doubt that FB by committee is not ideal, but neither is an aging FB in the process of breaking down that has become undependable. So based on the effect both options would have on the team, I'd say it's basically a push.

I hope Fiametta does well this year. But getting rid of Hoover was a mistake that will be realized as the season unfolds. Worse is that Hoover was cheap relatively and going to retire after this season anyway.

Solid and consistent is another way of saying average. And we've seen enough out of both Anderson and Connor to say that they can at least be average players. And ACL's usually don't take two years to come back from anymore. Players are typically healed within 6-7 months from the time of the surgery, but it's the strengthening of the muscles that extends most recovery past that point. So, physically, there is no reason to think Connor won't be 100% this year. And with the medical and rehabilitation improvements, most players don't lose much of their speed or lateral movement anymore. Therefore, I think Connor is more than able to give us at least what Diggs did. Anderson might too, but I see him more as a WLB, so likely will continue to back up Davis.

Solid and consistent isn't average or everyone would be that. It is mark of a veteran who has performed at a high level and been the starter even though he gets written off every year as over the hill. I hear he is pencilled in as the starter in St Louis right now.

And I had ACL surgery and am well aware of the recovery. Recovery is better than it used to be when I hurt mine, but it takes longer to get fully back that people think. Then there is the confidence issue that you can cut on it and push it without worrying about a relapse. As for Connors or Anderson taking over for Diggs, I hope so. It is far from a given at this point though. They will both have to work very hard to be able to read and react as well as Diggs did after so many years of experience.

There were a lot more factors going into our struggles against the run than just losing Kemo. For instance, in 2008, we not only lost Kemo, but Lewis had serious shoulder problems and missed time as well, and we had to rely on PS scrub Hayden to start. In 2009, we were changing to a new defense and lost Kemo once we got to camp, so there weren't many immediate options to replace him available.

Don't get me wrong, Kemo was an important part of our run defense, but really, all he did was take up space and blockers, but little else. And while I don't think Leonard will give us what Kemo did against the run, he evens things up with his versatility and ability to play the ball better than Kemo, as well as get more push up the middle. Like I said, neither are world beaters, but I don't think we lose much by going with Leonard either. Not to mention that there is a very real chance that Kemo will never be the same player again after his achilles tear, so whatever he gave us before might be a moot point in this conversation.

Is saying Lewis was our best interior lineman really saying all that much? He was solid, but that is all. That's why most everyone here felt he was a better fit as a backup playing in a rotation. And while I agree that currently Lewis is better than the guys we will replace him with, saying they will have to work very hard to match his production is a bit of an overstatement. His production was average, and like with the other positions we're talking about, the new guys should be able to provide average production...but unlike Lewis, they have the the potential to give much more.

For the record, I feel we still need a starting caliber DT since none of the guys we have have proven themselves to be anything but "just guys" (although I think Irvin has a lot more potential than many give him credit for)...however, I feel the exact same way about Lewis and Kemo. Which is why I don't think losing either makes us much, if any, worse than we were before. DT was alway a position in need of a major upgrade.

Kemo was the issue in 2008 and again in 2009 plain and simple. The game he goes down against the Giants we give up a franchise record on the ground and really didn't recover. Lewis got hurt in 2008 and was not himself in 2009 because Kemo didn't occupy 2 guys allowing him to play the 3 technique where he is much more effective. When he had to take on 2 guys he got steamrolled too often. It isn't his game. And yeah it is saying something that Lewis was our best interior guy last year. The whole argument being made that the old starters weren't so great and therefore we aren't losing much is fallacious at best. The guys we lost were all starters and the best we had. The replacements are just that. Guys not good enough to start who will have to step up their game significantly just to replace the guys gone. At this point none of them are upgrades at all.

As for needing a dominant DT, try getting the word to Hurney. We surely don't seem to be doing any thing at this point.

No arguement here. We absolutely must find a decent #2...and possibly a #3 as well.

I agree that no position is distinctly better than it was before, but also no position (with the exception of DE) is distinctly worse than it was before. But, dropping the guys we did doesn't change our team needs one bit, IMO. I still see WR and DT as primary needs since we need guys that can potentially start. DE, LB, and QB are also high priority since we need to add depth there.

That is where we disagree. I agree that no position is better with the exception of Moore but disagree that no position is worse. One doesn't follow the other. We are clearly worse at several positions. How many that ends up being still remains to be seen. But so far we have had subtraction without addition and as you mention we have several needs to fill. I am still waiting for Hurney to pull some rabbits out of his hat.

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