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Tanking the season


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#106 panthers55

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 11:00 PM

I am coming into this late after being in the mountains for a few days. My sense is the conversation has got to be one of extremes given the initial thread- tanking the season. Who in their right mind would do that unless they were getting ready to do something drastic. I haven't heard anything to suggest that is likely.
But at this point I can hardly say we are going to be better based on moves so far. With the exception of Moore and Anderson/Connor, there seems no one else of the replacements to be an upgrade over the person that we lost. I find we have a whole lot of uncertainty, guys with potential but no proven capacity. We have guys like Fiametta that clearly underperformed although they were only rookies so it wasn't unexpected. We have others like Leonard, Irvin who are coming off IR and expected to contribute significantly with no setbacks. We clearly have a very unproven and inexperienced line that will be counted on to get pressure. I think the wholesale changes are a testament to Baker and Meeks that Richardson believes they can turn a bunch of backups, reclamation projects and inexperienced young guys into a cohesive effective unit.

Then we have guys like Moose who are clearly aging but we haven't found anyone better. Hopefully the draft addresses that. Or a free agent. I am tired of waiting for Jarrett.

The question to me seems to be more of whether we are all in like we have been in years past. Is it possible that after years of being all in and producing inconsistent results, that we have replaced the mantra of winning at all costs with one of winning if we can, as long as it doesn't cost a bunch. Does that constitutes tanking? Not really. Are the Bucs trying to tank or are they just trying to win while saving as much as possible? Up to this year we weren't similar but have begun to act like them. Fortunately we have better talent but still, I can't say that excites me especially if we have similar results.

I wouldn't be going hogwild but if I were all in rather than shopping the bargain basement we would go after a Haynesworth or a Boldin. I don't see us doing that. It isn't trying not to win so much as it is not doing everything to win. I agree with building through the draft and developing a core group. I can go along with not paying Peppers as his salary was getting insane and he really didn't want to be here. And perhaps we will find out that Haynesworth wasn't obtainable either, but why don't we go after a few gamechangers if they don't break the bank and can improve you significantly. Teams that are one or two players away from something big- make moves to get better. We haven't yet(there is still time) unless you are trying to do the best you can with what you decide to work with. I think Richardson wants to win bad. But right now he cares more about saving money and spending as little as possible than he does about winning. He isn't alone so you can't really blame him. It is certainly a legitimate strategy to run the team. And he can easily defend it by saying he is already paying guys to perform and wants to see it happen. And he would be justified.

I just think he could keep to his strategy and plan to build through the draft and still bring in some guys who could provide veteran leadership, proven ability, and still wouldn't break the bank. It isn't what we have done as much as what we haven't yet done. That is why I can wait to see what happens in the next 6 or 7 weeks. Hopefully we find the missing pieces. I just haven't seen enough evidence that we are already better and alot to say we are worse off right now. Is that tanking? Far from it. But to say we aren't worse off as it stands right now means you are counting on a bunch of guys to perform well above the best they ever done to this point. And for backups not yet on the team to contribute significantly. I hope you are right and everyone comes through and that the injury bug doesn't hit as usual.

Tanking?? Of course not.

Better?? Of course not. At least not yet.

Edited by panthers55, 09 April 2010 - 11:13 PM.


#107 pantherclaw

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 11:20 PM

dude, I have never said they were "tanking" it. that is an exaggeration used by those who don't think we aren't focused more on building for the post Fox era and after the lockout.

it is pretty obvious what JR is doing......based on what he is doing w/ Fox, the roster moves and the non moves (yes, Carolina typically doesn't make moves.....but that is b/c in the past under Fox they have been built to practically try to win every year up until this year).

the huddle is pretty damn lame.....if fans are bashed b/c they don't go around predicting a Superbowl run each year. NFL teams go through all kinds of different periods....Carolina is making some moves this year that will put them in a better position the next few seasons. You guys need to chill and open your eyes.....this team has gotten weaker and is positioning itself to be great in a few years.....got take a step back to go forward sometimes.


Lol. I find it amazing how you view this off season. I will end this... as you are to blind to see anything but what you want to see.

#108 cookinbrak

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 11:31 PM

Pretty much :nonod:

I wonder how the players on the roster would feel about the idea that going with them equates to "tanking the season".


Steve Smith

Chris Harris

#109 rayzor

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 11:42 PM

If you have an opinion and don't agree with every move this team makes your doom and gloom.... lol.

ummmmm....

This team is not as great as some would have you to believe, they are average and below average when it comes to F.a. moves. We play scared, you know not to loose in all we do. Don't take a chance you might get burned, this team needs to grow a pair!

not sure but i think that is a bit doom and gloomish or at the least a bit pessimistic. don't like the tag? don't earn it.

#110 grateflday

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Posted 09 April 2010 - 11:47 PM

I think next season can go either way just as every other one. I would not be surprised if they didnt do well, but wouldnt be surprised if they did. There is to much talent left on the roster, and this team can end up being better.

#111 DaCityKats

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 12:40 AM

i do agree with most moves this fo has made,but we are not better than the team we had last year(outside of delhomme.) i still think we could have gotten some sort of compensation for pep if we would haved tagged him because look at the contract he got in the windy city.even if it was a 3rd rounder this year,that is better than nothing.

i dont think we are tanking this season but i dont see winning as our number 1 goal right now.it was said our owner would rather keep up the shield than have a winning team.as much as i want this team to win a super bowl im starting to think that might not be the goal for this organization. not to mention with all the buzz around talking about harris being pissed and beason saying we are rebuilding its obvious we are heading in a different direction. this team has a lot of ? and holes but its way to earlier to hold up the white flag.

#112 Udogg

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 12:42 AM

agreed. However I don't think we could have gotten anything for Pep.

#113 DaCityKats

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 12:45 AM

why not....philly been saying they were going to trade mcnabb for 3 plus years and did.

#114 rayzor

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 12:57 AM

the goal for the organization not winning a superbowl?

lowl you guys are toooooooo much.

#115 DaCityKats

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 01:01 AM

its not....not bc the talent on the team, but the guy who suppose to be the head coach.some people in this organization are content with being average now thats lol.

#116 rayzor

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 01:18 AM

he hasn't been given an extension. it's a do or die year for him. if you are content with the status quo (which has resulted in not winning a superbowl) then you make an effort to keep him.

if you are content with the status quo then you don't go and release/let go of most of those players that contributed to the status quo for years and decide to build on the young core.

there is very little they have done that would support the idea that they are complacent and not interested in making the team better. to make the team better you have to make room for new blood to come in. if fox can make the new crew a champion crew then good. if not then bye bye.

just because they haven't gone out and filled every "hole" and didn't fire fox (something that i wished they had done, btw) doesn't mean that the team isn't interested in winning the superbowl. i just see them as looking to give themselves a team that can make runs at it for years rather than just this year.

they have a good core to build on. a good crew for fox or whoever is the next coach to work with. it's also one that is entirely capable of making a superbowl run if things fall into place.

these guys want to win. they are going to give it everything they have. fox wants to win. richardson wants to win. they all do. while i might question their decision making (ESPECIALLY foxes), i would never question their desire to win.

#117 Woodie

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 01:33 AM

No, I don't think we are better than we were a year ago, but I also don't think we are any worse either (with the exception of losing Peppers). All the moves we have made are non-issues. Other than familiarity, we haven't really lost anything.

Is Fiametta a downgrade from Hoover? Yeah, when Hoover plays, but unfortunately, the number of plays in which he is on the field keeps going down as his injuries add up. So while, in theory, Hoover was a big loss, the reality is that he had become undependable, and while Fiametta is probably not ready to be THE guy at FB, other guys like Rosario and Sutton have proven that they are more than capable of filling that role solidly. So, while Fiametta is probably a downgrade in a one on one matchup with Hoover, the FB by commitee approach is probably an overall upgrade.

While Diggs was solid, he was far from spectacular. He's one of those guys that you're fine with if he's there, and fine with if he's not. However, since the SLB bar had been set only to solid, either Anderson or Connor (probably Connor) should be able to step in without missing a beat. So at worst, this should be a push, and at best an upgrade.

Lewis and Kemo. Come on, for the last few years both got reamed quite a bit because a lot of people thought they were substandard. So how is it that now so many are acting as if they were above average players. The truth is that Kemo (and Thomas last year) gave us a guy that can clog the middle, but little else. While Leonard may be unspectacular, and not as stout, he is more active and gets better push than Kemo. So what we give up in space eating, we will make up in more plays on the ball and push. No matter how you look at it, neither guy is special, and really, there's not much difference between the level each plays at. So I'd call this a push.

With Lewis, pretty much everyone has been saying for years he is nothing more than a rotational player that shouldn't be starting. So while Tyler/Irvin/Johnson may be a bit of a downgrade, it's only minimal. It's not as if we are replacing a pro bowler.

Until we get another receiver, Moose will look like a big loss, but his production had become very average, and that should not be hard to replace. But since we will certainly be picking up at least one more WR, this move gets an incomplete.

The only thing we lose from Jake is leadership, but with Moore entrenched as our starter, that leadership could have divided the team if we kept him on the roster, so losing him was an overall gain. However, we still need a vet backup, so this move is incomplete.

So, other than those guys, what other significant losses have we taken? It seems to me that pretty much every move is a virtual wash, meaning that the team is neither better nor worse than it was when the season ended. Of course, the one exception is that Peppers will be a big loss and puts the overall tally in the negative. But that was a move in which our hands were basically tied, and should have little or nothing to do with any discussion about what this team is trying to accomplish with the other moves the team made.

Edited by Woodie, 10 April 2010 - 01:35 AM.


#118 panthers55

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 01:49 AM

No, I don't think we are better than we were a year ago, but I also don't think we are any worse (with the exception of losing Peppers). All the moves we have made are non-issues. Other than familiarity, we haven't really lost anything.

Is Fiametta a downgrade from Hoover? Yeah, when Hoover plays, but unfortunately, the number of plays in which he is on the field keeps going down as his injuries add up. So while, in theory, Hoover was a big loss, the reality is that he had become undependable, and while Fiametta is probably not ready to be THE guy at FB, other guys like Rosario and Sutton have proven that they are more than capable of filling that role solidly. So, while Fiametta is probably a downgrade in a one on one matchup with Hoover, the FB by commitee approach is probably an overall upgrade.

While Diggs was solid, he was far from spectacular. He's one of those guys that you're fine with if he's there, and fine with if he's not. However, since the SLB bar had been set only to solid, either Anderson or Connor (probably Connor) should be able to step in without missing a beat. So at worst, this should be a push, and at best an upgrade.

Lewis and Kemo. Come on, for the last few years both got reamed quite a bit because a lot of people thought they were substandard. So how is it that now so many are acting as if they were above average players. The truth is that Kemo (and Thomas last year) gave us a guy that can clog the middle, but little else. While Leonard may be unspectacular, and not as stout, he is more active and gets better push than Kemo. So what we give up in space eating, we will make up in more plays on the ball and push. No matter how you look at it, neither guy is special, and really, there's not much difference between the level each plays at. So I'd call this a push.

With Lewis, pretty much everyone has been saying for years he is nothing more than a rotational player that shouldn't be starting. So while Tyler/Irvin/Johnson may be a bit of a downgrade, it's only minimal. It's not as if we are replacing a pro bowler.

Until we get another receiver, Moose will look like a big loss, but his production had become very average, and that should not be hard to replace. But since we will certainly be picking up at least one more WR, this move gets an incomplete.

The only thing we lose from Jake is leadership, but with Moore entrenched as our starter, that leadership could have divided the team if we kept him on the roster, so losing him was an overall gain. However, we still need a vet backup, so this move is incomplete.

So, other than those guys, what other significant losses have we taken? It seems to me that pretty much every move is a virtual wash, meaning that the team is neither better nor worse than it was when the season ended. Of course, the one exception is that Peppers will be a big loss and puts the overall tally in the negative. But that was a move in which our hands were basically tied, and should have little or nothing to do with any discussion about what this team is trying to accomplish with the other moves the team made.


Fiametta only played in 10 games last year- less than Hoover and suffered a major concussion which has to be a bigger concern when your job is described as being a battering ram. Sutton came in out of necessity when Fiametta couldn't play. Not only can't he play as well, he hasn't shown he can stay healthy. Fullback by committee may be what happens but it rarely is preferable to finding a consistent performer.

Diggs was solid and consistent. Sure we can say that Anderson and Conor are better but if they were, they would have played instead of being backups. Connor may be fine but he is still coming off an injury that often takes 2 years to fully recover and does effect your speed and lateral movement. just saying.............

As for Kemo- ever since he got hurt in 2008 and throughout 2009 our run defense was significantly worse than when Kemo was in there. Louis played 1 game and went on IR and may have issues who knows. But clearly no matter who we brought in, they were a downgrade from Kemo.

Lewis was clearly our best interior linemen and had less sacks than usual because he had to play more read and react rather than penetrate because the middle was suspect without Kemo. Irvin, Tyler and whoever else will have to work very hard to match Lewis's production.

So far Moose was the starter because no one else was able to do the job. We didn't find a replacement for Moose the first time we got rid of him so we brought him back. Hopefully we find his replacement this time but our history at doing that is suspect.

The reality is that with the exception of Moore, no other position is distinctly better off. There will be guys who step up and those who don't. But to say we are better right now is drinking something a lot stronger than Koolaid.:D

#119 chris999

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 02:24 AM

yeah, if he wins w/ a roster he isn't suppose to win with...... I guess could save his job. Life won't be made easy for Fox to do that.....it is called rebuilding for a reason.


i like fox, and i think he will be fine. nobody thouht he would take a 1 - 15 team to the superbowl in 2 years either. i think fox will lead us to the playoffs this year, and be extended

#120 DaveThePanther2008

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 04:35 AM

Defensive line is a huge question mark on this team. Its a question because we dont know what we've got really.
Louis Leonard only only played in what 2 games? he looked pretty good to me tho.
Everette Brown will certainly see the field more, but he has'nt seen it enough for us to know exactly what we have in him.
Charles Johnson has shown flashes of brilliance but hasnt cracked the starting lineup yet
Tyler Brayton is solid and serviceable but not elite
Corey Irvin who we drafted last year spent the entire season on i.r
Tank Tyler is a big mofo and young, havent seen enough of him yet either to pass judgement.
Theres others as well but we have more questions than we do answers there. We wont know what weve got, good or bad until the season starts.
They have potential but will they live up to it? nobody knows yet but at the same time we cant declare they all suck yet either.


I find it hard to believe the front office would deplete this team of players that performed well if we didn't have viable replacements. The slew of injuries to the DT corp was epic. How many DT's went down.

Lewis, Tyler, Irvin, Brayton and Johnson will take care of business.

I think the coaching staff has the belief that these players can and will perform as good as if not better than last years team. We didn't go after Brown just because he fell to the 2nd round. He was targeted to replace Peppers. I think we got a great pick. Charles Johnson and Brayton will take care of business and Brown will too. I honestly believe we will not miss Julius Peppers all that much. Sure the interceptions and the freakish athletic ability were fun to watch but they weren't the norm. JP was a prime time player. He only came out when on National TV.

Otherwise look at our starters. Moore was a post cut pickup (not really a free agent) Harris was via trade. Only our DT's and Brayton were free agents.

Our entire starting OLINE are draft picks TE and WR too. LB's CB, DE too. I see us getting younger with rookies and filling the gap with vet Free Agents. We will get good not great but good players at good prices to fill the final training camp roster.

We aren't tanking the season. Making our draft picks step up to the plate. Sure enough. I think we will surprise most next season.

Go Panthers


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