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Why so many teams are switching to the 3-4 and what it means for the Panthers


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#31 PantherBrew

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 08:08 PM

Cool, man.

I bet Foxy and Co. were thinking about this the whole time.

#32 Cyberjag

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 08:09 PM

When Fiz grows up he wants to be at least half as knowledgeable as P55, although until then he'll always act like he knows twice as much. :)

#33 Razzy

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 08:11 PM

Is there anyway to get statistics on the fox era panthers split up by 3-4 and 4-3 D's?

I like being a fan of a run first team personally.

#34 thejimmy

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 09:24 AM

We haven't done too well against 3-4 Ds, unfortunately. Last year, for instance, we lost to the entire AFC East, and all teams run a 3-4. Whenever we play Pittsburgh, we lose as well. There are other factors too, but I'm not sold on us playing against 3-4s.

#35 CatMan72

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 09:43 AM

Agree, the more teams follow the trend of re-tooling offenses to better defend the pass, the better our running game gets.

Just the other day, Charles Davis said NFL teams have gotten to the point of looking for 4 corners in the secondary instead of a run stuffing safety... advantage: us.

I don't think we need to switch to a 34 defense, but we do need to re-tool our secondary to make sure we have 4 guys back there than can cover. Harris is more of a traditional "in the box" safety, but last year there were occasions where we subbed Martin in to play pass coverage, so we're already adjusting. In the meantime, we should keep our offense as-is and cram the ball down the opponents throat.

#36 Lumps

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 09:45 AM

Wow, p55 pwning Fiz...

p55 you should post this in the smack forum.

:D

#37 panthers55

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 11:05 AM

Wow, p55 pwning Fiz...

p55 you should post this in the smack forum.

:D


Nice Avatar. :cheers2:

#38 Fiz

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 11:25 AM

Wow, p55 pwning Fiz...

p55 you should post this in the smack forum.

:D


how am I being owned?

brb gonna copy paste a bunch of stuff from wikipedia that doesn't contradict anything I said in the original post.

#39 Fiz

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 11:28 AM

Do the Panthers change their scheme inside the 20s. No they still use the Tampa 2 which doesn't employ blitzing much.

never said they changed their scheme p55 sorry you can't read

Are more NFL teams using a spread offense. Given that a spread look can take many forms including what we run when we use 2 wideouts and 2 TEs, then the answer would be yes. But lets be honest, teams have been using variations of a spread offense for 20 years given that the WCO offense is a variation of a spread offense. This is nothing new.

never said more teams are using a spread, simply that passing rules have altered the way passing routes and QB play is being done.

Are there going to be a dearth of players for a 4-3 with more teams going to a 3-4. Not really.

never said there were!

are you specifically disagreeing with me or did you just want to copy and paste a bunch of stuff because if it's the latter congrats you did a great job.

Maybe you should make your own thread where you post the top results from google.

#40 Fiz

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 11:28 AM

When Fiz grows up he wants to be at least half as knowledgeable as P55, although until then he'll always act like he knows twice as much. :)

Wow, p55 pwning Fiz...

p55 you should post this in the smack forum.

:D

seriously what are you two fuging on?

#41 Fiz

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 11:38 AM

p55 i took you off ignore because I thought you had posted something worthwhile. That's the last time I take cyberjag's obese ass seriously.

Since I know you didn't read it, and you sure seem willing to write (copy and paste) a lot, I will condense my argument into a simple form for you to respond to. Remember, if you want to argue with me, you need to address the specific points that I'm making.

3-4 defenses are spreading in the league.

This is due in part to two things

1. The rise in 3-4 ready talent from college ranks, due to defenses countering spread offenses, and people naturally becoming more athletic and making them possible.

2. With the few exceptions of brilliant 4-3 D coordinators, it allows the defense more creativity and more possibilities to blitz, hopefully negating the advantage created by QB friendly rule changes.

For the Panthers, this means that there will be more 4-3 talent available as teams move towards 3-4s (or 3-1-3 in the case of arizona etc), much like Ted Washington in the 90s. Certainly today no one as good as him would make his way to 7 teams.

#42 panthers55

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 11:45 AM

never said they changed their scheme p55 sorry you can't read


never said more teams are using a spread, simply that passing rules have altered the way passing routes and QB play is being done.


never said there were!

are you specifically disagreeing with me or did you just want to copy and paste a bunch of stuff because if it's the latter congrats you did a great job.

Maybe you should make your own thread where you post the top results from google.


Obviously you are upset that people think you were pwned and are trying to save face. But that was not my intent at all which is why I didn't respond to the comments when they were made. I was content to post and let it go but obviously you want a conflict. No surprise there.

My intent in posting not only the information I did but various links was so someone here who was not as familiar with the terms being used would have additional information if they cared. My opinion is this site is best used to discuss and inform rather than always bicker and amuse. There wasn't an intent to embarrass you or provide information to prove you were wrong.

As for your post, I appreciated your discussion. I enjoy discussing football rather than the myriad of personal attacks that masquerade as discussion here. Note that I didn't take you to task by cutting and pasting a bunch of information dissecting each element of your post. I actually find that annoying and only reluctantly do it after someone begins the process. And I don't really care to go on for pages with a back and forth debate now with personal attacks and mudslinging. If you want to PM to discuss this we can. But honestly I don't find the arguing and fighting to be amusing or worth pursuing. I would rather talk football. I wish we had more threads discussing the kind of things you brought up rather than many we do have.

#43 panthers55

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 12:17 PM

p55 i took you off ignore because I thought you had posted something worthwhile. That's the last time I take cyberjag's obese ass seriously.

Since I know you didn't read it, and you sure seem willing to write (copy and paste) a lot, I will condense my argument into a simple form for you to respond to. Remember, if you want to argue with me, you need to address the specific points that I'm making.

3-4 defenses are spreading in the league.

This is due in part to two things

1. The rise in 3-4 ready talent from college ranks, due to defenses countering spread offenses, and people naturally becoming more athletic and making them possible.

2. With the few exceptions of brilliant 4-3 D coordinators, it allows the defense more creativity and more possibilities to blitz, hopefully negating the advantage created by QB friendly rule changes.

For the Panthers, this means that there will be more 4-3 talent available as teams move towards 3-4s (or 3-1-3 in the case of arizona etc), much like Ted Washington in the 90s. Certainly today no one as good as him would make his way to 7 teams.


First of all the 3-4 is coming back for a few reasons. It is easier to find 3-4 OLB talent that 4-3 DE talent since most 4-3 DEs in college can play a 3-4 OLB but not as many can play a 4-3 DE spot. With the increase in sophistication of college defensive schemes DEs are being asked to play in space more often and are acquirng some of the skills necessary to transistion to a 3-4 in the pros. Also as more disciples of the 3-4 are created as they study under those already running one, you have more coaches familiar and proficient running the 3-4.

I would agree that the talent in college has improved over the years as players get more athletic. I would also agree that with a number of pro coaches migrating to the college ranks, offenses and defenses have gotten more sophisticated. Is there more 3-4 ready talent out there? Many of the same guys who are now being used for 3-4 OLBs are also being used for 4-3 DEs. Look at a guy like Brown. He is about as heavy as most 3-4 linebackers and could have gone either way. Taylor is another one who was considered for both. There has always been alot of talent for the 3-4 since most colleges play a 4-3 and there are 2 DEs who will either be a 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB. I don't see a trend toward colleges going to smaller DEs simply for speed purposes since the spread requires more speed in the secondary and linebacking core than from your linemen. And there are not a lot of linebackers in college who end up being great 3-4 linebackers although there are a few every year.

The 3-4 does have advantages against pass heavy offenses and it makes sense with the league going to more passing that defenses would gravitate to those best against the pass. The 3-4 can be beaten by good rushing attacks like ours and you will notice that many teams that traditionally run a 3-4 base scheme will bring in extra guys on the line when they play us. Dallas is a classic example of this when we play. The other thing to note that even 3-4 defenses typically run other schemes at least 50% of the time so there are few teams that run one scheme all the time even during a single game.

As for will the transition to a 3-4 afford us more talent, the short answer is yes and no. In the short term it could as teams make the initial transition and unload their talent that doesn't fit their new scheme. That is how we got Tank Tyler from Kansas City in a trade. And it may help us find linebackers since the ones we favor are typically too small to play linebacker in a 3-4. Perhaps even a few DTs in the 300lb range deemed too small or too slow to play DE in a 3-4 and hold the edge will migrate our way. But in the position that is hardest find in a 4-3 which is a DE it won't make much of a difference. It can also be noted that we have traditionally used a variation of the 4-3 where we have a big nose tackle like Kemo and now Louis similar to most 3-4s. Those fellows are the hardest to find and will even be harder to find if more teams go to a 3-4.

And for the record I did read your post but as I noted elsewhere my post wasn't an attempt to discredit you just clarify some information. It would be nice if you could afford me the same consideration.

Edited by panthers55, 15 April 2010 - 12:22 PM.


#44 Snake

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 12:41 PM

seriously what are you two f*cking on?




Ahhh yes the good Ole Fiz. Back in a flash. :lurk5:

#45 Lumps

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 01:09 PM

I have made fun of p55 for his long posts that put people in circles of long ass arguments that are brain numbing, but he does contribute a valid perspective that in this case I liked the info. I also take shots at you. Even I don't really post anything useful I am just a responder. But who the f**k cares? This was a post worth reading, so chill out Fiz, I give rep.


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