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I don't see why we can't make the playoffs this year.


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#46 pantherclaw

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 12:47 AM

i'm not doom and gloom at all. i'm very optimistic about this year. i'm just saying, it looks like our d-line is our weakness right now


Unproven as a unit doesn't make a weakness.

I'd like to ask anyone when the last time we've had a solid line. We haven't in years.

Last season we were in worst shape. Now we have a bunch of young talent to finially rebuild the dline. While there is cause for concern...I also think there is cause for cautious optimism. We don't even know who all the starting 4 will be...let alone how they will play together. Thankfully we have a good back 7. I'm looking forward to having a young defensive line again.

#47 Lumps

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 08:11 AM

No one is saying Richardson is controlling the team, but he is making some of these decisions that I don't think Fox really wanted. Fox would have not cut all these players, (but more importantly spend absolutely nothing in agency or on the year alone). Maybe Delhomme, but what coach that needs instant success all of a sudden wants to replace vets with rookies?

If you think the FO isn't waiting to see what Fox does with these young guys your pretty lost because they will be watching everything for the sake of his contract.

I think Fox will do great this year with the young guys and I think we will have a winning season. But I am a panthers fan and you guys needs to be realistic and try to look at the club from an outsider's perspective. If these things happened to say the Saints you guys would be all over it saying all kinds of doom and gloom poo.

If it were up to Fox I don't agree he would want half the salary spent that last year's, nothing spent in FA regardless of good/reasonable players (Boldin) and drafted all but some defensive help (except norwood) through the draft. Fox will never tell anyone what he really thinks or feels, and he isn't the kind of coach to bitch or make excuses unless it is what it is is an excuse. He will always work with what he has got. Everything posted here is speculation and opinions unless someone here is sleeping next to Fox at night and he discusses these things personally with you which I really doubt.

Edited by FortySixand2, 23 May 2010 - 08:14 AM.


#48 Cyberjag

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 08:18 AM

What free agents should we have signed?

#49 cookinbrak

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 08:22 AM

You're an angry man, aren't you?

On occasion, if I don't get my bottle.:)

As I said near the beginning, I think our offense could lead the league this year. Our defense is another story. I'm just tired of these folks who justify every move we make as being good. Harris didn't get traded because of his salary or his ability- he got traded because he questioned ownerships logic. And it will come back to hurt us if our roster stays as it is.

Edited by cookinbrak, 23 May 2010 - 09:23 AM.


#50 Lumps

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 08:35 AM

What free agents should we have signed?


You still don't get it... it's not we SHOULD have signed anyone specifically, it's that instant success has a better chance coming from FA than the draft. It also has a better chance coming from over 100 million salary than 60 million or whatever it is.

Seems like you'll argue pretty much anything but the above is really simple to understand. Or do you disagree with it?

Edited by FortySixand2, 23 May 2010 - 08:40 AM.


#51 MadHatter

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 08:45 AM

I don't agree with that. Moore was third on the depth chart, and our second QB got injured. And Jake had a strong history with the club--he didn't lose the locker room at all. Moore was good as a rookie, but not great, and he had disappointed the staff every time he had the opportunity since then. I think it's great that he did so well, but at the same time you need to acknowledge that having a defense give up less than 10 points a game makes it easy to go 4-1 (with the 1 being the time they gave up 20 to the Pats). And if Moore had flopped everyone would be crucifying Fox for not having a backup QB, right?


It depends on how you define "losing the locker room". I do think that the team had NO confidence in Jake performing well on the field. They saw it game after game after game after game. I do think the other players respected him....liked him...etc. However, there was a different swagger in MANY players when they went to Moore. That you cannot deny.

Several things had to happen for Moore to now get his shot. Delhomme had to suck and McCown had to be injured. However, that is how it plays out for many players.

Brady had to have the QB ahead of him get injured to have his shot....Warner had to play years in the European league. Just because he was not handed the job out of school does not mean that Moore does not deserve or has earned this shot. He did EVERYTHING asked of him and did it very well.

I have high hopes for him this season. However, I am VERY glad that we picked Clausen. He is a first round talent...played in a pro style offense...knows our offense well coming out of college. If Moore struggles, we do have a Plan B. If Clausen has to play, I still think we will be an 8-8 team at a minimum. He will lean on a great Running Game...and excellent OLine....and a good defense (yes I do think our DLine will be more than fine).

However, this is only my opinion....and like the opinion of anyone else on here, or any expert out there....it is worth poo.

We will only know once the games begin on Sunday.

#52 Cyberjag

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 08:55 AM

I think the Harris trade is the only roster move that Fox disagreed with. Of the big ones, there are some obvious things that jump out:
  • Delhomme's season was horrible, and despite any practice issues there may be, Moore got it done in games. We are likely to have an upgrade in talent here, although the leadership will no doubt be missed.
  • Hoover is 34, missed five games last year, and plays a physically demanding position. It was just time. Replacing him will be a crap shoot, it depends on if Fiametta can develop into a quality NFL starter.
  • Moose is 36, and missed three games. He also had more drops this year than I remember seeing (and that's a purely personal observation, maybe official stats will tell a different story). We're bound to improve here, at the very least we can field more speed to maybe stretch the field a little.
  • Vincent was the weak link on our offensive line, and with the talent of the other four it should be pretty easy to replace him with Schwartz, Bernadeau, Robinson or Davis. Based on Schwartz's play last year (what is it with Oregon guys looking better in games than in practice, anyway?), I think we'll be better off here, personally.
  • Thomas was never intended to be here more than one year anyway. He's 35 also.
  • Kemo had an injury that's difficult for a man his size to come back from, he's 31, and he never got the push that you would hope for from someone slated to make what he was going to in 2010. I think this is another position where the talent level will stay the same.
  • Lewis is 31, had all of half a sack in 2009, and was clearly on the downside of his career. We have two draft picks that play his spot on the roster, and a free agent as well. We're going to miss his leadership, and there's no telling if his production can be replaced by those on the roster. But the question there is, could 2010 Lewis match 2009 Lewis production? Not likely.
  • Diggs is 32, and has seen his production drop for the past two years. We also have some young talent on the roster at his position, and will probably improve here.
  • Harris is young and vocal, and a great locker room guy. He also doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. His production has never matched his first year here, and he doesn't have great speed. I think Fox wanted him to stay for his on-the-field leadership, but Hurney is Fox's boss, and was probably pissed at one too many tweets that questioned management. The talent here will be as good or better, but the leadership will be missed.
Overall we're probably going to be a more talented team, but the leadership will be fragile. Fox is fairly good at game planning and strategy (what head coach isn't at this level?), but one of his big strengths is motivation and leadership. Or it's supposed to be anyway. This year will either set that impression in concrete or put the lie to it.

#53 Cyberjag

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 08:59 AM

You still don't get it... it's not we SHOULD have signed anyone specifically, it's that instant success has a better chance coming from FA than the draft. It also has a better chance coming from over 100 million salary than 60 million or whatever it is.

Seems like you'll argue pretty much anything but the above is really simple to understand. Or do you disagree with it?


You're right. One only needs to look no further than the Washington Redskins to see your point. :)

Edited by Cyberjag, 23 May 2010 - 09:03 AM.


#54 Cyberjag

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 09:00 AM

It depends on how you define "losing the locker room". I do think that the team had NO confidence in Jake performing well on the field. They saw it game after game after game after game. I do think the other players respected him....liked him...etc. However, there was a different swagger in MANY players when they went to Moore. That you cannot deny.

Several things had to happen for Moore to now get his shot. Delhomme had to suck and McCown had to be injured. However, that is how it plays out for many players.

Brady had to have the QB ahead of him get injured to have his shot....Warner had to play years in the European league. Just because he was not handed the job out of school does not mean that Moore does not deserve or has earned this shot. He did EVERYTHING asked of him and did it very well.

I have high hopes for him this season. However, I am VERY glad that we picked Clausen. He is a first round talent...played in a pro style offense...knows our offense well coming out of college. If Moore struggles, we do have a Plan B. If Clausen has to play, I still think we will be an 8-8 team at a minimum. He will lean on a great Running Game...and excellent OLine....and a good defense (yes I do think our DLine will be more than fine).

However, this is only my opinion....and like the opinion of anyone else on here, or any expert out there....it is worth poo.

We will only know once the games begin on Sunday.


I don't know about the locker room thing, I don't think any of us really does. But those guys had played together for years, and I believe they trusted him more than any outside observer would.

Other than that, I think your post is spot-on, and nicely expands on the whole Moore thing.

#55 Floppin

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 09:18 AM

I think the Harris trade is the only roster move that Fox disagreed with.


Yeah that's what I have thought also. Of all the roster moves this is the only one that Fox commented on directly, or at least with more of a statement than his usual. He went out of his way to say that it was financially motivated. Whether that is actually the case, or a distractive statement to detract attention away from Harris's attention getting tweets.

#56 MadHatter

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 09:31 AM

I think the Harris trade is the only roster move that Fox disagreed with. Of the big ones, there are some obvious things that jump out:

  • Delhomme's season was horrible, and despite any practice issues there may be, Moore got it done in games. We are likely to have an upgrade in talent here, although the leadership will no doubt be missed.
  • Hoover is 34, missed five games last year, and plays a physically demanding position. It was just time. Replacing him will be a crap shoot, it depends on if Fiametta can develop into a quality NFL starter.
  • Moose is 36, and missed three games. He also had more drops this year than I remember seeing (and that's a purely personal observation, maybe official stats will tell a different story). We're bound to improve here, at the very least we can field more speed to maybe stretch the field a little.
  • Vincent was the weak link on our offensive line, and with the talent of the other four it should be pretty easy to replace him with Schwartz, Bernadeau, Robinson or Davis. Based on Schwartz's play last year (what is it with Oregon guys looking better in games than in practice, anyway?), I think we'll be better off here, personally.
  • Thomas was never intended to be here more than one year anyway. He's 35 also.
  • Kemo had an injury that's difficult for a man his size to come back from, he's 31, and he never got the push that you would hope for from someone slated to make what he was going to in 2010. I think this is another position where the talent level will stay the same.
  • Lewis is 31, had all of half a sack in 2009, and was clearly on the downside of his career. We have two draft picks that play his spot on the roster, and a free agent as well. We're going to miss his leadership, and there's no telling if his production can be replaced by those on the roster. But the question there is, could 2010 Lewis match 2009 Lewis production? Not likely.
  • Diggs is 32, and has seen his production drop for the past two years. We also have some young talent on the roster at his position, and will probably improve here.
  • Harris is young and vocal, and a great locker room guy. He also doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. His production has never matched his first year here, and he doesn't have great speed. I think Fox wanted him to stay for his on-the-field leadership, but Hurney is Fox's boss, and was probably pissed at one too many tweets that questioned management. The talent here will be as good or better, but the leadership will be missed.
Overall we're probably going to be a more talented team, but the leadership will be fragile. Fox is fairly good at game planning and strategy (what head coach isn't at this level?), but one of his big strengths is motivation and leadership. Or it's supposed to be anyway. This year will either set that impression in concrete or put the lie to it.


I agree with you 100% on each of your assessments above.

The Harris trade was the only one that I have any questions about. I do think we will be better in pass coverage with Martin and Godfrey, but Harris was a baller in the run game.

The tweets were probably the last straw that got him moved out of town. Harris was adamently against the moves that were being made and was VERY vocal in his opinion....in the media. Even though his leadership will likely be missed on the field, he would have been a major issue in the locker room. He was bitter about what was going on...was outwardly vocal about it...he would have been a cancer with younger players.

This team will be fragile to start the season from the leadership perspective. If we struggle big time out of the gate, they may not be able to recover without the verteran leadership in the locker room. However, if they come out and play well, this could be a very dangerous team.

Losing Peppers will be a hit. However, I like the pressure by committee that I believe Brayton, Johnson, Brown, Hardy,etc.. can bring. I also agree that DT is still a big ??. I liked what I saw out of Tyler and Leonard, but they are still unproved. I am cautiously optimistic that we can stop the run. If not, we will come out and struggle early....thus hurling us into that downward spiral that I spoke of above.

One thing for sure.....it will be an interesting training camp (lots of jobs up for grabs) and an interesting season. It is definitely not the status-quo that we have been accumstomed to seeing.

Edited by MadHatter, 23 May 2010 - 09:44 AM.


#57 Snake

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 11:07 AM

If Tampa Bay can win as many games as they did with no talent then we should be able to win twice that with the talent we have.

#58 panthers55

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 11:10 AM

The issue for me isn't that this couldn't be a playoff team. If everything goes well and everyone and their replacements play up to their potential we could surprise everyone. I just know that being a Panthers fan since the beginning, we rarely have those seasons. Last one like that for me was 2003. There is just little room for error and it clearly isn't a given like some folks seem to think.

#59 Cyberjag

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 11:43 AM

2008 was another. In both those years the injuries we had came at areas we could cover. I've been thinking of doing a blog post on injuries during the Fox era that goes over that. It's not about staying healthy--no NFL team does that. It's about sustaining when the injuries do happen, and Fox/Hurney have historically not done well there.

#60 panthers55

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 05:10 PM

2008 was another. In both those years the injuries we had came at areas we could cover. I've been thinking of doing a blog post on injuries during the Fox era that goes over that. It's not about staying healthy--no NFL team does that. It's about sustaining when the injuries do happen, and Fox/Hurney have historically not done well there.


I was going to include 2008 and 2005 but didn't because what I was talking about things falling right for us and remaining injury free at key positions. In 2008 and again in 2005 we didn't have a slew of injuries but we didn't reallly stay injury free either. And we also had some glaring holes on both those teams. When Jenkins went down Carstens stepped up admirably but we never replaced him. In neither year did we have a great passing game. In 2005 Smitty was unreal but he was a 1 man show. When he got shut down we were pretty one dimensional. Our running game wasn't that great. The defense really carried us.
In 2008 we had a phenomenal running game but again outside of Smitty has little else but Moose. When teams stopped the run, we really had nothing else. We scored alot of points particularly at the end of the season but our defense was not that great and we struggles to stop folks when we needed to. And our defense was bad partucularly when Kemo and Lewis went down.

I wouldn't say we had great depth in 2008 either. Our defensive line outside of the starters was suspect, our line play was not great on either side of the ball when key players like Gross or Kemo got hurt and I didn't think that we got very many lucky breaks. Otherwise for example Kasay's kick in New York doesn't hook and we win in regulation. Going 12-4 means things couldn't have gone terribly wrong wither but I don't think we had depth or many breaks in 2008.

I just think that the last time the stars aligned for us was in 2003. before that it was 1996.


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