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Is a pocket presence something you can learn or a natural talent?


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#16 panther4life

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 01:54 PM

After the last two years with Jake, I can understand that we Carolina fans are yearning for a quarterback who can -- at the very least -- not lose games. But whomever it is we go with, be it Moore or Clausen, deserves more than a game or two to prove or disprove themselves.

Being stuck with Jake for so long has really turned us into a fanbase that seems to blame everything on the quarterback, it seems. And don't get me wrong -- Moore's performance was terrible last game. But we've seen that he can play, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

If he starts having back-to-back games like the one last week, then maybe I'd put Clausen in. But I wouldn't give him one shot -- I'd leave him in for the season. You're not doing a rookie quarterback any favors by putting him into a horrible situation, letting him play badly, and then not giving him the rest of the season to learn from his mistakes. If you're going to give up on Moore, then you have to buy in to Clausen and let him take his lumps the rest of the year.


I am already a huge Clausen supporter and frankly would like to see him in there asap. I am just giving Moore a pass here, more less because we have to. Clausen has already shown he has good pocket presence and can make every throw that Moore can.

The biggest question mark with Clausen is can he adjust to the speed of the nfl. I really believe that is something that wont take long to figure out. This would be the only reason I could see justifying making him wait a year, is allowing him to adjust to the speed of the NFL.

I also dont buy into the throwing him to the wolves too early would hurt his development. If that was the case then there would never be any rookie qb's starting

#17 CharlotteBeer.com

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 01:57 PM

I also dont buy into the throwing him to the wolves too early would hurt his development. If that was the case then there would never be any rookie qb's starting


I think you misunderstood me. I personally don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to start a rookie quarterback, and we've seen it done successfully time and time again. I just don't think you should start Clausen and, if he doesn't play well, put Moore in later. If you're going to start a rookie quarterback, you need to make sure you're committed to starting him the rest of the season.

It's understood that a rookie quarterback is going to make some mistakes. You can't bench him in favor for the previous quarterback when that happens.

#18 panther4life

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 02:12 PM

I think you misunderstood me. I personally don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to start a rookie quarterback, and we've seen it done successfully time and time again. I just don't think you should start Clausen and, if he doesn't play well, put Moore in later. If you're going to start a rookie quarterback, you need to make sure you're committed to starting him the rest of the season.

It's understood that a rookie quarterback is going to make some mistakes. You can't bench him in favor for the previous quarterback when that happens.


I think Clausen if given just 1 shot,would give you reason to start him the rest of the season. Now I can't go on record and say for 100% (really temtped to) that Clausen will automatically be an upgrade over Moore, if Moore can fix his mistakes.

My only question about Clausen really is adjusting to the speed of the NFL, if he can catch on quickly and improve weekly then he needs to start all year.

The only scenarios where I wouldn't want Clausen starting are these 2.
1. Moore recovers from last weeks game and can play good enough to make us a contender.
2.Clausen coming out and showing he's nowhere near ready to step in and take over.

If Clausen wasn't on the roster these types of threads wouldn't exist.

#19 FuzzyPanther

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 02:36 PM

i have noticed from last year he tends to float a lot of passes that he should gun. is this a arm strength issue or a touch issue?


I'm going to have to go back and look at some plays, but this is usually attributed to poor mechanics of the throw itself. (hand placement, grip strength, shoulder/arm angle, release point, hip rotation, foot placement, weight transfer, follow through, etc...) The most common problem causing the "high floating pass" is throwing from the back foot (not rotating hips forward).

There are a number of other problems that might be rearing their ugly head here, and I'm thinking it's more likely that Matt is lacking some talent, and even more so, experience, to compete in top levels of football.

Don't panic til after 4 games are complete. If we are 1-3 or 0-4, and Moore has 4 or more INT's than TD's, then that will be a great time to panic. 2-2 or 3-1 w/ a close INT/TD ratio, then we are still competitive and have something to play with.

#20 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 02:43 PM

I think Clausen if given just 1 shot,would give you reason to start him the rest of the season. Now I can't go on record and say for 100% (really temtped to) that Clausen will automatically be an upgrade over Moore, if Moore can fix his mistakes.

My only question about Clausen really is adjusting to the speed of the NFL, if he can catch on quickly and improve weekly then he needs to start all year.

The only scenarios where I wouldn't want Clausen starting are these 2.
1. Moore recovers from last weeks game and can play good enough to make us a contender.
2.Clausen coming out and showing he's nowhere near ready to step in and take over.

If Clausen wasn't on the roster these types of threads wouldn't exist.


well, that is the problem with the logic. The Panthers could be contenders....but the simple fact is this isn't an all in year like others have been. Move have been made to prep for the future and be in a position to win long term......moves aren't being made to put us in a good scenario to win now.

#21 Fan01

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 02:49 PM

Moore reminds me of a slightly better, more mobile version of Chris Weinke.
I remember having argument after argument over why Weinke was not a good QB while the fan base continually pined for him.

What I mean is, much like Weinke, he seems to lack any ability to improvise or move beyond the called play to a specific receiver. He looks like he drops back and runs the play on automatic regardless of what the defense does. This can work will is hurry up mode when the defense has less time to react or when the run game is doing really well because the focus is off the passing game.

I really think when you turn up the pressure the game moves to fast for him. His mind can't make the decisions fast enough.

His pocket awareness is bad because when your first receiver is covered you have to run through plans B-F in a second and make a move.

I've thought this about him from the first time I saw him in extended playing time (not including preseason).

Yeah, I'm a Jimmy guy. I like him because I see the exact opposite traits in him. Jimmy might play just as bad as Moore to start but Moore will never be much more than he is right now.

#22 panther4life

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 02:59 PM

good first post fan01

btw I have been watching highlights of both Moore and Clausen.

Moore has made some big plays or more often than not the reciever he got it to made some big plays after the catch.

I swear on the highlights that I watched Moore threw it to his first read every single time. If his first read can't get open, thats where the problems come with him. Also his pocket presence was much better in those highlights of last year than the Giants game this year.

Jimmys Highlights showed him playing more Mcnabbish, prepared to scramble but keeping his eyes downfield and going through more progessions vs locking onto 1 man.

#23 Millions

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 03:05 PM

^^^
*thought I was the only one that has seen a bit of McNabb style of play in Jimmy*

#24 Fan01

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 03:15 PM

Thanks, P4L. I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice it. It's easy to see in highlight packages. For fun, I watched some highlights from Moore last year and then Brees. Of course, Brees is a fantastic QB but when you watch a guy like him to can see how different he reads the field. I swear, half the time it seems like he finds the open receiver when looking at the defense on the opposite side of the field. It's like he sees that there's an extra linebacker or DB to one side and realizes instantly who's single covered or where the soft spot in the zone is. He's looking one direction and then, bam, pivot and throw.

I would love for Moore to prove me wrong and become a franchise QB. I love the Panthers and just think the best players should play. What's funny is, I bet, Fox and Co. agree. They want to win this year but not at the expense of throwing a young QB in too early. You don't have to look much farther than Fox's history to see he really likes to sit young players for a looooonnnnng time before playing them and even then it takes an act of God.

Unless Moore does get injured we've got him the whole season. The only way Jimmy plays is injury or if when we loose enough games we can't make the playoffs.

#25 Chaos

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 03:17 PM

Face it, Matt Moore's arm will never be the same since he had teh Tommy Jone surgery.

It's time to find another QB! :rolleyes:

#26 Jrock3016

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 03:17 PM

another game like last game and then you have to give Jimmy 1 shot. If Jimmy fails, then go back to Moore.


yea like the browns last season! smh

#27 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 03:20 PM

Thanks, P4L. I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice it. It's easy to see in highlight packages. For fun, I watched some highlights from Moore last year and then Brees. Of course, Brees is a fantastic QB but when you watch a guy like him to can see how different he reads the field. I swear, half the time it seems like he finds the open receiver when looking at the defense on the opposite side of the field. It's like he sees that there's an extra linebacker or DB to one side and realizes instantly who's single covered or where the soft spot in the zone is. He's looking one direction and then, bam, pivot and throw.

I would love for Moore to prove me wrong and become a franchise QB. I love the Panthers and just think the best players should play. What's funny is, I bet, Fox and Co. agree. They want to win this year but not at the expense of throwing a young QB in too early. You don't have to look much farther than Fox's history to see he really likes to sit young players for a looooonnnnng time before playing them and even then it takes an act of God.

Unless Moore does get injured we've got him the whole season. The only way Jimmy plays is injury or if when we loose enough games we can't make the playoffs.



that seems fair. Comparing a guy with 9 NFL starts.....with Drew Brees. Shocking that Brees looks to do things signicantly better. Moore must suck.

as far as the last goes, Moore isn't Jake and hasn't earned the right w/ Foxy to play at such a poor level for multiple games. Fox is a lame duck and is leaving....he will do whatever it takes to look the best THIS year.

#28 Jrock3016

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 03:20 PM

Moore reminds me of a slightly better, more mobile version of Chris Weinke.
I remember having argument after argument over why Weinke was not a good QB while the fan base continually pined for him.

What I mean is, much like Weinke, he seems to lack any ability to improvise or move beyond the called play to a specific receiver. He looks like he drops back and runs the play on automatic regardless of what the defense does. This can work will is hurry up mode when the defense has less time to react or when the run game is doing really well because the focus is off the passing game.

I really think when you turn up the pressure the game moves to fast for him. His mind can't make the decisions fast enough.

His pocket awareness is bad because when your first receiver is covered you have to run through plans B-F in a second and make a move.

I've thought this about him from the first time I saw him in extended playing time (not including preseason).

Yeah, I'm a Jimmy guy. I like him because I see the exact opposite traits in him. Jimmy might play just as bad as Moore to start but Moore will never be much more than he is right now.


how you see that in jimmy? He hasnt even played!

#29 Fan01

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 03:35 PM

There's enough film on Jimmy at ND and through the preseason to see some of those intangibles. I don't know for sure. You base your opinion on what you see. It doesn't take a lot of film to see if a QB consistently reads a defense and goes though his progressions or if he locks onto his first receiver, or if he's a mobile QB or a stature. Some things you can pick up right away.

That doesn't mean Jimmy will become a even average QB. It's all potential but it's potential I've never seen in Moore even though Moore's been in the league for a few years and started numerous games.

I'm not exactly comparing Brees to Moore. You're right, it's wouldn't be fair. I'm using one of the best in the NFL to highlight some things that any successful QB in the NFL must be able to do. While not many can or will do it to the level the Brees does, using him as an example makes it easier to see my point.

I'm sure Moore wants to be a better QB and he's not watching game film of Rodney Peete to see how to be a successful QB. He watching the Drew Brees and Payton Manning.

#30 Fan01

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 03:40 PM

as far as the last goes, Moore isn't Jake and hasn't earned the right w/ Foxy to play at such a poor level for multiple games. Fox is a lame duck and is leaving....he will do whatever it takes to look the best THIS year.


I disagree. Just by virtue of becoming a starter on a John Fox team affords you that right. If nothing else Fox makes you earn your spot.


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