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Mr. Scot

Management Philosophy

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Yes, but you can't say that that number is irrelevant because the Panthers came out very early and said that even though there wasn't a cap this year they were going to still operate as if there was one. Other teams like the Pats, Steelers, Eagles, Cardinals all came out and said, and done, the same thing this organization did.

Your right. They didn't talk about a cap but about a budget. Which by the way is actually the way they do it every year. The cap is just a number they have to use some creative accounting to get under. The yearly budget is what they actually spend and either adds or subtracts from the bottom line.

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I've already seen both of those but you are 100% incorrect when you say that the dead money is irrelevant and has all been paid in previous years. It's payroll = all paid this year. Not salary cap hit from excelerated signng bonus hits. Better than half was guarantees such as Jake's. Add that to the fact that Jerry and other owners have stated they will operate within a budget just like there was a salary cap and it shows why we aren't charging out to throw money at big names. The money isn't there. Some owners are trying to buy a Lombardi and put a higher payroll limit than Jerry.

Dead cap space is irrelevant because there is no cap plain and simple. You can call jake's salary dead cap space for the point of argument but without a cap it is meaningless. Plus his actual salary is already reflected in the 112 million for this year. That is why cutting him was not a financial decision.

When guys like Kemo and Lewis were cut, not paid the 5 million payment in the offseason which everyone acknowledged wouldn't have happened anyway, their contracts became 1 year deals. This is the area where the cap and payroll diverge. They were paid nothing so they had no salary. But the cap hit accerelerated and is part of that dead cap space which boosted the figure you quoted to 124 million. BUt the point that is irrelevant is that the money spent on them has already been accounted for in past payrolls.

As for the money not being there, that is crap as well. They spent 112 million last year. They spent 112 million this year. They raised ticket prices and received the same TV money. Add it up and it clearly shows they had more money this year than last but didn't spend it all.

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It is so easy to create a philosophy in hindsight and say it always was the intention of the team to follow it. I don't believe it.

So my question is, when do they stop the "youth movement"? Every year has a draft class plus undrafted rookies and every year you can keep only 53 players. Even if you assume that we never sign another outside FA and that we draft extremely well, we will lose at least 10 or more of our "youth" every year. And they are our "best". They'll no longer be our "best" next year? There's no logic or look to this scheme that tells the fans or anyone else that the Panthers are built to win each year. That, after all, is the goal each year of 32 NFL teams and their fans.

In any other industry it would be age discrimination.

Besides, the Panthers are doing their youth a great disservice by not having veterans on the team (even as backups) for them to learn from. For a youth movement of this type to be successful, we would need 53 superstars. That's simply not the case. How much better would Matt Moore have played the Giants if he had a veteran QB on the sideline like he did last year instead of 2 rookies? How much sooner would it had been realized that he was consussed, because he isn't going to take himself out of the game?

Steeler good? No way, and not anytime soon; no jury needed. I looked at the Steelers' roster. They have 17 at 30 or older and only 1 is a kicker. 28 Steelers have 6 or more years of experience. Those are veterans that their youth will learn from. That is part of the Steelers' team philosophy and that is why their version of a "youth movement" works: it's not all at once and they count on veterans to help. Hines Ward admitted that much last year, that part of his job is now to help the younger players. FYI, they have 8 rookies on their roster.

I do agree that the Panthers will not do anything in FA this year. But not because of some overall team philosophy.

:leaving:

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building a roster through FA is the best approach.. there is no doubt about this.. we have been rather successful as well (in recent years anyhow)..

expecting the FO to go out into FA and bring in players would be surprising considering that isn't their philosophy.. no one should be surprised..

what is surprising is when we fail to draft in one particular position the entire duration of the FO tenure... and never bring in a quality professional when available...

my frustration comes in, when in 5 years, we'll have a Smitty at the end of his career and no draft picks who ever made anything of themselves..

If I'm wrong, I'll gladly eat crow... but there is no reason to believe otherwise.. :)

and I'm usually one of the few optimists.. but reality strikes hard when it comes to the WR position.. there is nothing to be optimistic about based on the last 8 years.. that is a huge time line to judge by..

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My question with this philosophy is your almost force too give a player chance after chance because you drafted him and you don't want too look like a fool by giving up on him. Plus you wasted a high pick.

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The Hurney and Richardson philosophy is not the problem. It seems like a good philosophy for setting the Panthers up for success in about 2 years. Fox and the complacent, inexplicable play calling is the problem.

My biggest issue with what I see going on this year is just that it certainly seemed in the Giants game that Fox simply did not care to make any scheme or personnel adjustments at halftime or throughout the second half.

I am so SICK of hearing..."well we were behind so we had to throw the ball...anytime you're in that position its tough..."

WHY THE HELL WERE YOU BEHIND IN THE FIRST PLACE???

I don't want to jump to conclusions...but it seems like the coaching staff really phoned that one in. I mean 3 INC passes with 1st and Goal from the 4 and it ends in an INT. THat reeks of complacency.

If they're not TRYING to win the game, then maybe the handwriting is already on the wall on Fox's time with the team.

Maybe the Top Brass is covetting the idea of grabbing a Top 5 draft pick.

Is it concievable that Richardson kept Fox on because he wanted the captain to go down with the ship...grab a high draft pick...and install a new coach and be called a genius when its all said and done?

To me...Fox is looking like the scapegoat and maybe that's what he wants, too).

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Dead cap space is irrelevant because there is no cap plain and simple. You can call jake's salary dead cap space for the point of argument but without a cap it is meaningless. Plus his actual salary is already reflected in the 112 million for this year. That is why cutting him was not a financial decision.

There is no "official" cap, that's undeniably true, but the Panthers have stated along wiht other teams that they are going to operate on a budget just like there was a cap. It appears as though the number from last year is the budgeted amount. Almost 10% (10.7 million) of that was used to pay off Jake as a "non exercise fee" when they chose not to pay him 12 mill + to extend 1 year. (But we do still owe 2 million more.) They're sticking to their budget while some fans would rather they spend freely to buy a Lombardi.

When guys like Kemo and Lewis were cut, not paid the 5 million payment in the offseason which everyone acknowledged wouldn't have happened anyway, their contracts became 1 year deals. This is the area where the cap and payroll diverge. They were paid nothing so they had no salary. But the cap hit accerelerated and is part of that dead cap space which boosted the figure you quoted to 124 million. BUt the point that is irrelevant is that the money spent on them has already been accounted for in past payrolls.

Nothing pertinent. Cap doesn't exist, payroll budget does. Not everybody gets to act like our government and set budgets only to keep extending them. Some folks have to stick to them.

As for the money not being there, that is crap as well. They spent 112 million last year. They spent 112 million this year. They raised ticket prices and received the same TV money. Add it up and it clearly shows they had more money this year than last but didn't spend it all

No it's not crap. They have their money budgeted for salaries. Also some for other expenses including stadium, FO staff etc. As much as everybody is homing in on the NFLPA statement that the owners still get paid by TV contract even if no games are played, the reality is that eventually, there will be a year when they have to put a product on the field without getting that money, or possibly reduced payments over several years. They have to make some pretty big payouts even without player salaries next year. The tv money will make it easy to cover that but eventually,. they'll need to pay salaries without it.

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Two Words, 'Drew Brees"

Or how about the other FAs and trades the Saint's made for players that made them contenders and Super Bowl Champs. No you can't buy your way to a Super Bowl, you need a balanced approached. Sometimes FAs don't work out, but neither do Draftees, cough Eric Shelton, cough. If you have a hole on your team, try and fill it with the best guy you can find and who will come here. No one expects Jerry to go the Dan Snyder approach, but we don't want Snyder's opposite either. At least show you are serious about building a winning team. When you have a major hole at WR and you don't even sniff around some of the available vets; it doesn't scream "serious". When agents say they can't even get returned phone calls for the possibility of signings, it doesn't look good.

I want to resign our Vets, Beason, Kalil, Williams; and I was distressed to Gannt's tweet last week that they might let Williams walk in F.A. Even though we are grossly below the former salary cap level.

I hope they turn around and resign Williams and that a new agreement will get Jerry off the cross for the NFL. It can't be denied Jerry and Co. have gone cheap this year and it appears to be all in the name of owner unity. Other owners are making signings, not all but some. I hope an agreement can be made with the owners and union, and then Jerry will loosen the purse strings.

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Consider the possibility that the Panthers as an organization have had great success and savings at developing positions all over the field, and an embarrasing record at other positions.

We have drafted tackles, ends, safeties, and corners well for years, secured many bargains. Even signed a free agent corner well. And on the offensive line, we've landed several franchise anchors, in the draft and free agency. Same with running backs, good in the draft, good in F.A.

As far as Mr. Scot's post goes, I think we can continue to expect our team to continue the management philosophy that it has in all of those positions because it has worked for us. We shouldn't fix what ain't broken.

But we've been absolutely questionable locating, evaluating, developing Quarterback, Wide Receiver, and Tight End talent. The year we went to the SB we had a healthy Proehl(free agent 2003), Smith(drafted 2001),and Muhammad(drafted 1996), and a fresh Delhomme. From 2004-2009, our personnel decisions all over the receiving group ended badly.

We threw everything we had at the quartback draft this offseason, to the point where talking heads said we sacrifice too much, took the search too far. If we take for granted that the 2010 draft has us set at QB, then the unaddressed positions are TE/WR.

Since running the ball has always been our team's identity, our 3 TE's cannot produce more than Jeff Davidon's run-support play calling affords them. I'll leave it to the experts to say whether our TE's are underutilized.

I find it hard to conceive our best players on the field when Dante Rosario is on the bench and Dwayna Jarrett is on the grass.

Anyway, that leaves the catches and drops to our receivers. Suffice it to say, that our last 7 years of receiving have been generally uninspiring, in spite of stellar performances by Steve Smith. The challenge to improve our completion % and YAC is Tyke Tolbert's. He must be able to communicate the difference between what we have and what we need, and when he cannot coach up a rookie, he must ask for the funds to pay a free agent.

Brandon LaFell is his first test, Gettis is his second. If they pan out, Tolbert should get some commanding freedom to influence our free agency singings.

One thing should be clear though, we won't get back to the Superbowl again until we have receivers as good as Smith/Muhammad/Proehl. If we are to do this in the draft alone, then we are a few years off. Will Jordan Gross still be around then?

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There is no "official" cap, that's undeniably true, but the Panthers have stated along wiht other teams that they are going to operate on a budget just like there was a cap. It appears as though the number from last year is the budgeted amount. Almost 10% (10.7 million) of that was used to pay off Jake as a "non exercise fee" when they chose not to pay him 12 mill + to extend 1 year. (But we do still owe 2 million more.) They're sticking to their budget while some fans would rather they spend freely to buy a Lombardi.

Nothing pertinent. Cap doesn't exist, payroll budget does. Not everybody gets to act like our government and set budgets only to keep extending them. Some folks have to stick to them.

No it's not crap. They have their money budgeted for salaries. Also some for other expenses including stadium, FO staff etc. As much as everybody is homing in on the NFLPA statement that the owners still get paid by TV contract even if no games are played, the reality is that eventually, there will be a year when they have to put a product on the field without getting that money, or possibly reduced payments over several years. They have to make some pretty big payouts even without player salaries next year. The tv money will make it easy to cover that but eventually,. they'll need to pay salaries without it.

So all three responses are totally unrelated to the conversation. We weren't talking whether they should be on a budget or not simply that they spent no more money this year than last yet they had more to spend. So all the pinching pennies is a ruse to convince players they need a bigger piece of the pie not reality as you suggest.

The Panthers have more money to spend in 2010 than they had in 2009 due to increased ticket prices across the board and breaking up prices between lower tier (rows 1-15) and the higher tier (16 and above). The TV money for 2010 is the same or possibly higher than 2009. That is a fact.

Your whole argument is predicated on the argument that if they have no money next year due to a work stoppage they need to save their pennies now. First of all that is not germaine to this discussion since we were talking 2010 not 2011. Secondly, if we don't play next year it will be totally the owners fault since they are the ones pressing the issue and they would be the one locking out the players. The players are fine with the status quo. It is the owners who want a bigger piece of the pie. So if they don't have any money it is by their own design and could be easily avoided.

As for the 2011 TV money, the commisioner said it was in the form of a loan which would have to be paid back which was negotiated as part of the last TV revenue deal. The players union is suggesting the owners put in the provision without the player's knowledge knowing they were going down this road and weren't representing the players interests when they included the provision which was in violation of the collective bargaining agreement. I leave that to the lawyers though.

But as I said and it is perfectly clear, Richarson has plenty of money to pay his folks and players. The fact that some teams spent 150 million this year and other spend 85 million tells me that there is clearly not a widespread expection that money is going to be tight now or in the future. Otherwise they all would be pinching pennies and they clearly aren't. Richardson as one of the CBA negotiators is spearheading this and that is why he is going on the cheap. He has plenty to do what he wants but he can't spent it and still cry poverty next march. It is all smoke and mirrors.

He can make any budget he wants and spend what he wants. But if he puts a substandard product on the field he will feel it in his pocket just like Jacksonville and Tampa. This week is the first time I remember a blackout being discussed in years. And it isn't just the economy but an expectation we are going to be just like Tampa Bay, the bottom dweller.

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