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Panthers find bright spots in defensive ends

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Posted

...now if we could just get Charles Johnson to change out of that ridiculous looking helmet, it worked for Moore, it could work for CJ.

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Posted

Man if we had a pocket collapsing DT, we could be 2-9 right now.

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Posted

I see brown every game. Hard not to notice his non stop motor. He's been close to many sacks., and been part of the reason the opposing qb has to move around. When the defensive tackles are getting the pressure as often as they should, it makes it harder for the ends.

I like all the young ends we have.

Upgrade at the dt position (a much bigger need than qb IMO), will greatly improve our defense.

Brown won't be the force that either Johnson or Hardy will be next year. Brown has a great motor but needs to bulk up and get stronger.

As for the DTs, Hayden is actually one of the best this year. I would rather get rid of Johnson than Hayden (can't believe I am saying that).

Brown is much better than he is given credit for, he still struggles but is no where near the complete bust people have him penned as. Brayton has seriously struggled this year.

Our DTs have in general struggled, but it is not as world's apart as some of you have us think. Hayden, as hard as he tries, still struggles as a pass rusher and is abused in the run game.

DEs

2009

Peppers (446 pass rushes) - 10 Sk (2.0%), 10 Ht (2.0%) & 33 Pr (7.0%)

Brayton (381 pass rushes) - 5 Sk (1.3%), 7 Ht (1.8%), 24 Pr (6.3%)

Johnson (264 pass rushes) - 4 Sk (1.5%), 2 Ht (0.8%), 22 Pr (8.3%)

Brown (265 pass rushes) - 3 Sk (1.1%), 7 Ht (2.6%), 13 Pr (4.9%)

DEs (1356 pass rushes) - 22 Sk (1.6%), 26 Ht (1.9%), 112 Pr (8.3%)

2010

Johnson (324 pass rushes) - 7 Sk (2.2%), 5 Ht (1.5%), 37 Pr (11.4%)

Brown (243 pass rushes) - 2 Sk (0.8%), 2 Ht (0.8%), 16 Pr (6.6%)

Hardy (107 pass rushes) - 1 Sk (0.9%), 4 Ht (3.7%), 9 Pr (8.4%)

Brayton (230 pass rushes) - 0 Sk (0.0%), 7 Ht (3.0%), 5 Pr (2.1%)

DEs (904 pass rushes) - 10 Sk (1.1%), 18 Ht (2.0%), 67 Pr (7.4%)

DTs

2009

Lewis (408 pass rushes) - 0 Sk (0.0%), 11 Ht (2.7%), 19 Pr (4.7%)

Thomas (169 pass rushes) - 0 Sk (0.0%), 1 Ht 0.6%), 4 Pr (2.3%)

Hayden (126 pass rushes) - 1 Sk (0.8%), 0 Ht (0.0%), 3 Pr (2.4%

Tyler (66 pass rushes) - 0 Sk (0.0%), 0 Ht (0.0%), 2 Press (3.0%)

DTs (769 pass rushes) - 1 Sk (0.1%), 12 Ht (1.6%), 28 Pr (3.6%)

2010

Landri (254 pass rushes) - 1 Sk (0.4%), 1 Ht (0.4%), 9 Pr (3.5%)

Hayden (143 pass rushes) - 1 Sk (0.7%), 1 Ht (0.7%), 2 Pr (1.4%)

Neblett (17 pass rushes) - 0 Sk (0.0%), 0 Ht (0.0%), 2 Pr (11.8%)

Johnson (164 pass rushes) - 0 Sk (0.0%), 2 Ht (1.2%), 1 Pr (0.6%)

DTs (578 pass rushes) - 2 Sk (0.3%), 4 Ht (0.7%), 14 Pr (2.4%)

Things to note:

* Johnson is THE man

* Johnson has 37 defensive stops thus far (Pep had 26 all last year)

* Brayton should be pulled as starter (poor against the run as well)

* Neblett's pressure an anomoly?

* Brown is now getting more consistent pressure than last year (still low)

* Lewis was better than our current DTs, but not by much

* We are getting FAR more pressure from our LBs than in 2009

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Posted

But wait. If Brayton, an older veteran, is doing worse than last year that could mean that older players level of play declines year over year...

Pfffffft. That's a ridiculous idea. P55 set this guy straight.

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Posted

Man if we had a pocket collapsing DT, we could be 2-9 right now.

LOL, true

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Posted

It's kind of funny how things turn out. With Peppers leaving, there was a concern with losing the pass rush due to the lack of Peppers on the edges.

Charles Johnson looks like he's comfortable now and is continuing to impress me.

EB has flashed once or twice, but he's going to need a productive 3rd year to wiggle out from under all the hate he gets because of what the team spent to get him (I'm sure AE and him could write a book on the subject).

Greg Hardy is a man beast, and I hope that he continues to improve in performance. We can go draft another young DE next year when Brayton is finishing up his contract (does it end this season or next? Neither?).

DT is a huge need. We have to take one no later than the 4th. My original belief was that we should have gotten a monster TE with the 3rd round pick, but it's pointless to try and say when to get who in the draft when we don't know who's declared yet, who we've lost, when we're picking, who we're trading, etc etc. That said, if it looks like a top 5 TE will still be available in the 4th, scoop up a DT! =D

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Posted

But wait. If Brayton, an older veteran, is doing worse than last year that could mean that older players level of play declines year over year...

Pfffffft. That's a ridiculous idea. P55 set this guy straight.

Brayton isn't playing well this year. Not sure why. I don't know that age is the main factor given that Brayton is not that old and doesn't have a history of abuse or injury to his body. Most older players break down due to cumulative wear and tear but Brayton wasn't a consistent starter his first couple of years and has been relatively healthy. Each case is different although age gets everyone in the end.

What I do see is that Meeks scheme is so dependent on getting pressure with the DEs and there is so little help with the DTs inside, our DEs are constantly taking inside rushes to get pressure on the quarterback. Consequently they get sucked inside and fail to do what the DE is mainly responsible for in the run game which is hold the edge and turn things inside. Teams can run wide on us particularly on the offense's left side (our right side) anytime they want. By the time the linebacker and safety can get over there, the running back is down the field. Hillis killed us that way last Sunday. The defensive scheme seems pretty porous many times against outside runs. The line stunts and attack angles seems pretty basic as well and are easily countered. I wonder how much is personnel, how much is execution and how much is scheme.

Maybe it is me but I would rather spend time discussing football and schemes for example that taking pot shots at other posters. How about you, Del??

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Posted

Brayton isn't playing well this year. Not sure why. I don't know that age is the main factor given that Brayton is not that old and doesn't have a history of abuse or injury to his body. Most older players break down due to cumulative wear and tear but Brayton wasn't a consistent starter his first couple of years and has been relatively healthy. Each case is different although age gets everyone in the end.

The thing is, Brayton has always been a little 'over-rated' by the huddle board. One thing is for sure, he works hard, really hard and is very committed. The problem is, he really has never provided any real consistent pressure (this season is his worst by far though) and his run play is grossly over-estimated.

However I like him and continue to think he is a good guy to have around. This is a guy who has been through a lot of crap in this league and if there was someone to teach Brown how to rise through adversity, it's him.

I think perhaps the reason why he is playing worse this season is possibly because it's pretty damn difficult to stay committed to the season and thus we are automatically taking away his major asset.

What I do see is that Meeks scheme is so dependent on getting pressure with the DEs and there is so little help with the DTs inside, our DEs are constantly taking inside rushes to get pressure on the quarterback. Consequently they get sucked inside and fail to do what the DE is mainly responsible for in the run game which is hold the edge and turn things inside. Teams can run wide on us particularly on the offense's left side (our right side) anytime they want. By the time the linebacker and safety can get over there, the running back is down the field. Hillis killed us that way last Sunday. The defensive scheme seems pretty porous many times against outside runs. The line stunts and attack angles seems pretty basic as well and are easily countered. I wonder how much is personnel, how much is execution and how much is scheme.

I have wondered much on the scheme myself. Even before Meeks I never really saw us make a clever play along the defensive front, it's always seemed that we take on the 'single matchups' philosophy.

All you need to do is look at the Giants DLine and see that with talent, intelligent play creation can turn you into an unstoppable force on it's day.

However, are the angles down to the inexperience of our young ends? Johnson has contained the left side pretty damn well, however Brayton and Brown have struggled. This is something we unfortunately can only speculate on.

Maybe it is me but I would rather spend time discussing football and schemes for example that taking pot shots at other posters. How about you, Del??

This. I have had enough of all the childishness round here, I can only read so many single sentence threads without going mad. Nice to actually have discussion for a change.

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Posted

Meeks had more speed and, generally speaking, smaller defenders in Indianapolis than he does here. He never had a decent group of DTs that got any consistent middle pressure there, either.

But, he did have Dwight Freeney. Now, Dwight Freeney-like production is what Meeks expects out of Everette Brown and it's not going to happen. Let's hope not, anyway. As good as Freeney may be, he's pretty one dimensional and gets owned against the run. The Panthers cannot afford to have a one-dimensional DE. Robert Mathis makes up for what Freeney lacks against the run. In Charlotte, a healthy Thomas Davis with his speed would be a perfect match with Everette Brown in much the same way if only Brown could improve.

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Posted

man if we had a pocket collapsing dt, we could be 2-9 right now.

3-8. :biggrin:

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Posted

Meeks had more speed and, generally speaking, smaller defenders in Indianapolis than he does here. He never had a decent group of DTs that got any consistent middle pressure there, either.

Bingo, they just had a prolific offense that forced many teams to pass to catch up, allowing their incredible DEs to do what they do best.

But, he did have Dwight Freeney. Now, Dwight Freeney-like production is what Meeks expects out of Everette Brown and it's not going to happen. Let's hope not, anyway. As good as Freeney may be, he's pretty one dimensional and gets owned against the run. The Panthers cannot afford to have a one-dimensional DE. Robert Mathis makes up for what Freeney lacks against the run.

This is actually a myth. He was bad, but the last couple of years he has really shored it up and has been average and at times pretty good at times.

Mathis is not better, nor worse than Freeney is at defending the run.

In Charlotte, a healthy Thomas Davis with his speed would be a perfect match with Everette Brown in much the same way if only Brown could improve.

As DEs? Not sure Davis has the ability to shed blocks, nor exploded from a 3 point stance considering he has never done it and was a college safety. Eric Norwood on the other hand...

By the way BRown is steadily improving, I am cautiously optimistic about him next season

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Posted

The thing is, Brayton has always been a little 'over-rated' by the huddle board. One thing is for sure, he works hard, really hard and is very committed. The problem is, he really has never provided any real consistent pressure (this season is his worst by far though) and his run play is grossly over-estimated.

However I like him and continue to think he is a good guy to have around. This is a guy who has been through a lot of crap in this league and if there was someone to teach Brown how to rise through adversity, it's him.

I think perhaps the reason why he is playing worse this season is possibly because it's pretty damn difficult to stay committed to the season and thus we are automatically taking away his major asset.

I have wondered much on the scheme myself. Even before Meeks I never really saw us make a clever play along the defensive front, it's always seemed that we take on the 'single matchups' philosophy.

All you need to do is look at the Giants DLine and see that with talent, intelligent play creation can turn you into an unstoppable force on it's day.

However, are the angles down to the inexperience of our young ends? Johnson has contained the left side pretty damn well, however Brayton and Brown have struggled. This is something we unfortunately can only speculate on.

This. I have had enough of all the childishness round here, I can only read so many single sentence threads without going mad. Nice to actually have discussion for a change.

Yeah I would much rather debate issues like you mentioned than make childish oneupmanship remarks which seem to fill threads these days.

To your speculation about the DEs, I think much of our lack of sack production revolves around lack of DT play meaning the defense can concentrate on the DEs. As for Johnson I really think he has come into his own this year and is a force. I really have not been concentrating on it but maybe you saw it. How many sacks does he have from the DT position on third downs with perhaps Hardy on the edge versus sacks from the DE position.

As for Brayton specifically, I would separate his run defense in the past from this year. In 2009 for example he had 45 tackles and 5 sacks. So far this year he has started 9 of 11 games and has 14 tackles and 0 sacks. A huge drop off. Last year he led the defensive line in tackles and this year he is at the bottom. They kind of dropoff is pretty unusual without a major injury. Meanwhile Charles Johnson's numbers are going to be way up.

As for general defensive line play I do think our schemes are pretty poor really. I don't know how much of that is Meeks and how much is Baker. But color me very unimpressed this year. Teams can easily exploit us especially on the edges. Johnson is the only one who is really doing a good job.

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