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Panthers find bright spots in defensive ends


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#16 panthers55

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 12:47 AM

I agree with the article 100%. While Brown hasn't showed greatness yet, he is still only 22 and should be a force next year. Hardy was the steal of the draft for us and he is already showing promise for us. If we can replace Hayden next year our defensive line should be dominate once again. I would rather see us draft a defensive tackle rather than QB unless we can get one in FA. This will make our defense very dominate.


Brown won't be the force that either Johnson or Hardy will be next year. Brown has a great motor but needs to bulk up and get stronger.
As for the DTs, Hayden is actually one of the best this year. I would rather get rid of Johnson than Hayden (can't believe I am saying that).

#17 Kevin Greene

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 01:13 AM

I see brown every game. Hard not to notice his non stop motor. He's been close to many sacks., and been part of the reason the opposing qb has to move around. When the defensive tackles are getting the pressure as often as they should, it makes it harder for the ends.

I like all the young ends we have.

Upgrade at the dt position (a much bigger need than qb IMO), will greatly improve our defense.


Works his ass off. Can't quite get there.

#18 panthers55

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 01:21 AM

Works his ass off. Can't quite get there.


Isn't big or strong enough to use bullrush or other strength moves. Has one spin move and can't hold the edge. At this point Hardy is a more complete DE than Brown. If Brown wants to be the next Freeney he is going to have to bulk up and develop more moves.

#19 MaineManPanther

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 01:36 AM

Your right, Gantt talks to Baker and they talk about the defensive ends and lack of production by the DT (reference to escape lanes) and Gantt does research and finds that this year the DTs combined have 8 pressures and Lewis alone last year had 22.
And you really don't see how things have fallen off since he left or that he was a major contributor last year?? How would things have changed? Over twice as many pressures from the DT position alone not counting whatever Kemo would have brought to the table. What part of that didn't you understand??

Hard to believe people can still argue that the veteran losses were not significant. It was the major and largely only thing that changed from last to this year.


Im arguing over Lewis a. Him being on this team would have have made our DT situation from horrid to maybe average. Lewis is an average player who can play good on occasion. The fact that he's currently a second string proves as much. Twenty more pressures werent going to suddenly make this team better in the win column. Why is that so illogical?

I would not argue that for this one year most of those Vets would be upgrades. But thats not saying much. They would not make this team suddnely playoff bound. And if thats the case, why keep them? Most of them were older and without any great play. They were nto goingto be here much longer anyway.

#20 panthers55

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 02:26 AM

Im arguing over Lewis a. Him being on this team would have have made our DT situation from horrid to maybe average. Lewis is an average player who can play good on occasion. The fact that he's currently a second string proves as much. Twenty more pressures werent going to suddenly make this team better in the win column. Why is that so illogical?

I would not argue that for this one year most of those Vets would be upgrades. But thats not saying much. They would not make this team suddnely playoff bound. And if thats the case, why keep them? Most of them were older and without any great play. They were nto goingto be here much longer anyway.


First of all to say that a guy is a second stringer on another team means he would not be good here is faulty logic. He was a starter here last year and would have been the best DT on the team by far. He had twice the quarterback pressures himself than all the DTs have had this year combined. He would have made a difference on the team and should have been kept. As for would he guaranteed a playoff spot this year, no one can say that. But if we would have retained him, Moose, Jake, Harris and Hoover, for example, we wouldn't be focused mainly on the draft before December has even arrived.
The lack of veteran leadership and experience are the reasons we are 1-10 plain and simple.

And as for being here very long, that is my point. There was no reason to cut them. Jake, Lewis, Hoover, and Kemo were all on the last year of their contract. Moose would have been given a 1 year deal. Harris was the only one under a long term contract and he was traded. These guys were cut to save to save money this year not get rid of bad contracts that would caused cap problems down the road. That is more propaganda produced by the youth movement squad.

#21 MaineManPanther

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 02:53 AM

First of all to say that a guy is a second stringer on another team means he would not be good here is faulty logic. He was a starter here last year and would have been the best DT on the team by far. He had twice the quarterback pressures himself than all the DTs have had this year combined. He would have made a difference on the team and should have been kept. As for would he guaranteed a playoff spot this year, no one can say that. But if we would have retained him, Moose, Jake, Harris and Hoover, for example, we wouldn't be focused mainly on the draft before December has even arrived.
The lack of veteran leadership and experience are the reasons we are 1-10 plain and simple.

And as for being here very long, that is my point. There was no reason to cut them. Jake, Lewis, Hoover, and Kemo were all on the last year of their contract. Moose would have been given a 1 year deal. Harris was the only one under a long term contract and he was traded. These guys were cut to save to save money this year not get rid of bad contracts that would caused cap problems down the road. That is more propaganda produced by the youth movement squad.


My point with the second stringer is that overall he is an average DT compared to the rest of the NFL. He is obviously better the our curretnt Dt's but that's more of our DT's being awful then Lewis being that good.

No one can really predict. But personally I don't see how and avreage DT, G, an a would be 34 year old FB with back injuries last year, and a QB coming of a awful season would merit this team a decent chance at playoffs.
And because of that, I dont see the big issue on releasing them this year. The worse it possibly did was make what wouldve been an average team in 2010 into a bad team.

#22 pantherj

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 03:31 AM

Lewis is better at rushing the QB than the DTs we have now. If we still had Lewis, then I think we might be slightly better than we are now. Big deal. Wake me up when Jerry opens his wallet and buys an elite pass ruishing DT. Better yet, go buy 2 of them, and then I'll be conviced that he's serious about this team. Tampa-2 is waste of time and effort unless the D-line can colapse the pocket from all sides. Otherwise, bend over. We've all been raped by our penny penching owner, but if Hurney starts in with "build through the draft" this offseason, then I'm blowing my rape whistle and staying emotionally detatched from this team.

#23 Anybodyhome

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 07:05 AM

"The lack of veteran leadership and experience are the reasons we are 1-10 plain and simple."

Not the only reason, but it is somewhat surprising to me the front office left these intangibles on the cutting room floor when they decided to "go young."

And trust me on this, Ndamukong Suh is as rare as the rookie franchise QB in the draft. The Panthers are not going to suddenly find their defensive mojo if they were to draft a stud DT. Free agency is the way to go for a DT. Haloti Ngata (Ravens) is a free agent in 2011, I believe....

#24 CatMan72

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 07:35 AM

Our DE's are masters of the "almost sack". If we had a DT that was capable of getting penetration up the middle, our DE's would instantly get much better. No push up the middle means the QB can setup up in the pocket and watch our DE's go right by him.

#25 CatMan72

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 07:38 AM

...now if we could just get Charles Johnson to change out of that ridiculous looking helmet, it worked for Moore, it could work for CJ.

#26 Delhommey

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 08:14 AM

Man if we had a pocket collapsing DT, we could be 2-9 right now.

#27 Urrymonster

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 08:16 AM

I see brown every game. Hard not to notice his non stop motor. He's been close to many sacks., and been part of the reason the opposing qb has to move around. When the defensive tackles are getting the pressure as often as they should, it makes it harder for the ends.

I like all the young ends we have.

Upgrade at the dt position (a much bigger need than qb IMO), will greatly improve our defense.


Brown won't be the force that either Johnson or Hardy will be next year. Brown has a great motor but needs to bulk up and get stronger.
As for the DTs, Hayden is actually one of the best this year. I would rather get rid of Johnson than Hayden (can't believe I am saying that).


Brown is much better than he is given credit for, he still struggles but is no where near the complete bust people have him penned as. Brayton has seriously struggled this year.

Our DTs have in general struggled, but it is not as world's apart as some of you have us think. Hayden, as hard as he tries, still struggles as a pass rusher and is abused in the run game.

DEs
2009
Peppers (446 pass rushes) - 10 Sk (2.0%), 10 Ht (2.0%) & 33 Pr (7.0%)
Brayton (381 pass rushes) - 5 Sk (1.3%), 7 Ht (1.8%), 24 Pr (6.3%)
Johnson (264 pass rushes) - 4 Sk (1.5%), 2 Ht (0.8%), 22 Pr (8.3%)
Brown (265 pass rushes) - 3 Sk (1.1%), 7 Ht (2.6%), 13 Pr (4.9%)

DEs (1356 pass rushes) - 22 Sk (1.6%), 26 Ht (1.9%), 112 Pr (8.3%)

2010
Johnson (324 pass rushes) - 7 Sk (2.2%), 5 Ht (1.5%), 37 Pr (11.4%)
Brown (243 pass rushes) - 2 Sk (0.8%), 2 Ht (0.8%), 16 Pr (6.6%)
Hardy (107 pass rushes) - 1 Sk (0.9%), 4 Ht (3.7%), 9 Pr (8.4%)
Brayton (230 pass rushes) - 0 Sk (0.0%), 7 Ht (3.0%), 5 Pr (2.1%)

DEs (904 pass rushes) - 10 Sk (1.1%), 18 Ht (2.0%), 67 Pr (7.4%)

DTs
2009
Lewis (408 pass rushes) - 0 Sk (0.0%), 11 Ht (2.7%), 19 Pr (4.7%)
Thomas (169 pass rushes) - 0 Sk (0.0%), 1 Ht 0.6%), 4 Pr (2.3%)
Hayden (126 pass rushes) - 1 Sk (0.8%), 0 Ht (0.0%), 3 Pr (2.4%
Tyler (66 pass rushes) - 0 Sk (0.0%), 0 Ht (0.0%), 2 Press (3.0%)

DTs (769 pass rushes) - 1 Sk (0.1%), 12 Ht (1.6%), 28 Pr (3.6%)

2010
Landri (254 pass rushes) - 1 Sk (0.4%), 1 Ht (0.4%), 9 Pr (3.5%)
Hayden (143 pass rushes) - 1 Sk (0.7%), 1 Ht (0.7%), 2 Pr (1.4%)
Neblett (17 pass rushes) - 0 Sk (0.0%), 0 Ht (0.0%), 2 Pr (11.8%)
Johnson (164 pass rushes) - 0 Sk (0.0%), 2 Ht (1.2%), 1 Pr (0.6%)

DTs (578 pass rushes) - 2 Sk (0.3%), 4 Ht (0.7%), 14 Pr (2.4%)

Things to note:
* Johnson is THE man
* Johnson has 37 defensive stops thus far (Pep had 26 all last year)
* Brayton should be pulled as starter (poor against the run as well)
* Neblett's pressure an anomoly?
* Brown is now getting more consistent pressure than last year (still low)
* Lewis was better than our current DTs, but not by much
* We are getting FAR more pressure from our LBs than in 2009

#28 Delhommey

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:09 AM

But wait. If Brayton, an older veteran, is doing worse than last year that could mean that older players level of play declines year over year...

Pfffffft. That's a ridiculous idea. P55 set this guy straight.

#29 CatMan72

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:23 AM

Man if we had a pocket collapsing DT, we could be 2-9 right now.


LOL, true

#30 Icege

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:54 AM

It's kind of funny how things turn out. With Peppers leaving, there was a concern with losing the pass rush due to the lack of Peppers on the edges.

Charles Johnson looks like he's comfortable now and is continuing to impress me.

EB has flashed once or twice, but he's going to need a productive 3rd year to wiggle out from under all the hate he gets because of what the team spent to get him (I'm sure AE and him could write a book on the subject).

Greg Hardy is a man beast, and I hope that he continues to improve in performance. We can go draft another young DE next year when Brayton is finishing up his contract (does it end this season or next? Neither?).

DT is a huge need. We have to take one no later than the 4th. My original belief was that we should have gotten a monster TE with the 3rd round pick, but it's pointless to try and say when to get who in the draft when we don't know who's declared yet, who we've lost, when we're picking, who we're trading, etc etc. That said, if it looks like a top 5 TE will still be available in the 4th, scoop up a DT! =D


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