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Throwing good money after bad: Defense


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#1 Frash Brastard

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 03:40 AM

wrote this little piece on my blog (really honing my writing skills), anyway I'll post part of it here.

From the looks of it, this defense, to me, is stacked with talent. And if we could get someone that can bring out the full potential from these guys, and make them produce as a unit, believe me, we could end up letting them all go to FA and bringing in later round draft picks to start like some of these teams are doing. To other people, however, they can find 3 or 4 pieces of this defense to improve. DE needs 2 additions, DT needs 4 additions, we need to get a new SLB, we need to drop Lucas and get Asomugha, etc, etc. WE could throw 80% of cap space towards the defense, and it still might not be as consistent or as good as some of the more consistent defenses out there.

Lets compare and contrast, shall we? I'll use the Eagles depth chart to compare starters with the Panthers'.

LE
Tyler Brayton (1st rd drft pck; Raiders)
Juqua Parker (Undrafted; Titans)

RE
Julius Peppers (2nd ovr pck)
Trent Cole (5th rd pick)

LDT
Maake Kemoeatu (undrafted; Ravens)
Mike Patterson (1st rd pck)

RDT
Damione Lewis (1st rd pck; Rams)
Brodrick Bunkley (1st rd pck)

Linebackers
Jon Beason (1st rd pck)
Thomas Davis (1st rd pck)
Na'il Diggs (4th rd pck; Packers)

Stewart Bradley (rd 3 pck)
Akeem Jordan (undrafted)
Chris Gocong (rd 3 pck)

Secondary
Ken Lucas (2nd rd pck; Seahawks)
Chris Gamble (1st rd pck)
Chris Harris (6th rd pck; Bears)
Charles Godfrey (3rd rd pck)

Asante Samuel (4th rd pck; Pats)
Sheldon Brown (2nd rd pck)
Quintin Mikell (undrafted)
Brian Dawkins (2nd rd pck)

Carolina signs more high profile free agents, spend higher picks and more money on their defense, but they can't develop talent nearly as well as Philadelphia does, while it can be argued that Carolina invests in raw talent, it certainly didn't pay off this season when they finished 18th overall and Philly finished 3rd. Compare Beason to any Eagles LBer and he looks like a world beater. Julius Peppers gets to the QB way more often than Trent Cole. Individual comparisons would suggest that the Panthers have the more productive talent and more return in investment, but as a unit, they fail. In spite of the interceptions, the sacks, the high tackle totals, they give up a lot of yards, because it's the system they're in. Philly runs a system that works. Philly gets way more value in their players than we do, and they spend more cash on the offense, look at all the 1st day picks they've dedicated there.


In short, what I mean by "throwing good money after bad" is the fact that despite any improvements we can make in player personnel this offseason, it will be fruitless if the scheme doesn't work, and for the past 2 years at least, it definitely hasn't, and even when it did, it showed flashes of breakdowns in certain games.

#2 BlindSite

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 04:49 AM

I don't really agree, our linebacker corp is far better and the eagles have a lot of depth rotating in on their defensive line that comes from high (1-3) picks.

#3 Frash Brastard

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 05:22 AM

I don't really agree, our linebacker corp is far better and the eagles have a lot of depth rotating in on their defensive line that comes from high (1-3) picks.


I never said their backers were better.

But also, none of their Dline depth/back ups are first round picks. Only Mike Patterson and Bunkley are, as a matter of fact, they're the only first rounders that start on their defense. Second round picks or later are in depth.

#4 Cyberjag

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 06:08 AM

So is this about developing talent or good scouting? Brayton and Lewis were other teams' first round picks, and both sucked where they were but are doing well enough here. Do you still want to count them as first rounders when they clearly didn't have first round value by the time we got them?

A better sense of where we are could be gotten by considering how many teams in the league our guys would start for. I think that Peppers, Gamble, Beason, and Davis would start anywhere. Kemo probably would too. Harris couldn't crack the starting lineup in Chicago, and Brayton was sliding down the depth chart in Oakland. Godfrey is a rookie, Lucas, Lewis and Diggs would start for some, but not all.

#5 Urrymonster

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 07:19 AM

I would say that the '1st round picks' we have signed up through free agency are actually budget players. They have not lived up to their hype at all at their previous teams and thus it actually makes them cheaper than signing a player who has come on, yet was drafted in the later rounds.

Once players hit the NFL, where they were drafted means diddly squat. If you want to do this kind of thing then I would look at the players contracts, THAT is the only way to see if we are wasting money on free agents.

#6 carpanfan96

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 07:44 AM

Philly's defense on cap hit cost around 56 million, while ours cost us about 45 million and thats counting peppers 14 million last year.

#7 Urrymonster

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 07:47 AM

Philly's defense on cap hit cost around 56 million, while ours cost us about 45 million and thats counting peppers 14 million last year.


What is the total cap figure for this season? Regardless we are spending over half of our budget on offense, unless we have the most expensive special teams in the league...

Does indeed back up that recently we have looked more for the hungry over looked player rather than someone who has had a freakish season.

#8 carpanfan96

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 08:22 AM

What is the total cap figure for this season? Regardless we are spending over half of our budget on offense, unless we have the most expensive special teams in the league...

Does indeed back up that recently we have looked more for the hungry over looked player rather than someone who has had a freakish season.


I believe we are at 112 million, the total hit for defense is 47 million. so our offense cost us roughly 55 million. Kasay and baker count for 3.2 million combined. You also have to figure in dead space for signing bonuses for players that have been cut in the previous seasons.

Delhomme - 10 million
Gross - 7.5
Smith - 5.8
Wharton - 2.7
Dwill - 2.2
McCown - 1.9
bridges - 1.7
Stewart - 1.5
Hangartner - 1.4
Otah - 1.2
Moose - 1.2
Hoover - 1 million

Those are the offensive players that had a cap hit over 1 million With vincent being right under 1 million.

Edited by carpanfan96, 26 January 2009 - 08:36 AM.


#9 thefuzz

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 09:12 AM

Delhomme needs to do some major restructuring, if we are going to be able to stay in the fold.

#10 Pumpkin Eater

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 09:18 AM

Philly must be terrible at drafting.

#11 carpanfan96

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 10:30 AM

Delhomme needs to do some major restructuring, if we are going to be able to stay in the fold.


it would be difficult to make his actual salary much smaller, but not impossible but it wouldn't save us that much money.

A breakdown of his salary shows that his base salary is 3.69 million
He got a bonuses last year totaling 2.5 million
makes his actual salary 6.19 million on the season
He has a cap hit of 10.956 million for last season

His cap hit is so big from his original signing bonus and his resigning/restructuring from 2004.

#12 Urrymonster

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 10:32 AM

it would be difficult to make his actual salary much smaller, but not impossible but it wouldn't save us that much money.

A breakdown of his salary shows that his base salary is 3.69 million
He got a bonuses last year totaling 2.5 million
makes his actual salary 6.19 million on the season
He has a cap hit of 10.956 million for last season

His cap hit is so big from his original signing bonus and his resigning/restructuring from 2004.


What would that make his projected cap hit for next season? Ignoring any bonuses etc he may have picked up this season...

#13 carpanfan96

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 10:35 AM

What would that make his projected cap hit for next season? Ignoring any bonuses etc he may have picked up this season...


his cap hit next season is roughly the same around 11 million.

#14 Frash Brastard

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 03:08 PM

I would say that the '1st round picks' we have signed up through free agency are actually budget players. They have not lived up to their hype at all at their previous teams and thus it actually makes them cheaper than signing a player who has come on, yet was drafted in the later rounds.

Once players hit the NFL, where they were drafted means diddly squat. If you want to do this kind of thing then I would look at the players contracts, THAT is the only way to see if we are wasting money on free agents.


hypothetically speaking, one could argue the teams they were put on did not have good coaching at all.

I mean Brayton played for a team that switched head coaches every year or two. And also, wasn't Oakland's defense like top 3 one year or something like that?

Damione Lewis had 5 sacks one year in St Louis, his best total of his career, and pretty good overall for a DT.

Compare salaries you say? (top 10 for each team)

Asante Samuel(CB)$0$9,145,000
Brodrick Bunkley(DT)$0$4,014,720
Brian Dawkins(S)$0$3,340,054
Trent Cole(DE)$0$3,245,250
Darren Howard(DE)$0$3,206,720
Mike Patterson(DT)$0$3,131,250
Lito Sheppard(CB)$0$2,731,720
Sheldon Brown(CB)$0$2,381,720
Juqua Parker(DE)$0$1,806,720
Chris Clemons(LB)$0$1,500,000

34,503,154

Julius Peppers(DE)$0$14,137,500
Ken Lucas(CB)$0$5,905,000
Ma'ake Kemoeatu(DT)$0$3,545,000
Thomas Davis(LB)$0$2,196,250
Chris Gamble(CB)$0$1,983,740
Damione Lewis(DT)$0$1,913,333
Jon Beason(LB)$0$1,718,740
Landon Johnson(LB)$0$1,705,000
Tyler Brayton(LB)$0$1,525,000
Ricardo Colclough(CB)$0$1,500,000

36,129,563

#15 Frash Brastard

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 03:24 PM

compare with Giants defense (7th overall i think)

Antonio Pierce(LB)$0$5,300,000
Ogemdi 'Osi' Umenyiora(DE)$0$4,987,500
Fred Robbins(DT)$0$4,001,666
Justin Tuck(DE)$0$2,454,250
Sam Madison(CB)$0$2,150,000
Robert Williams 'R.W.' McQuarters(CB)$0$2,100,000
Danny Clark(LB)$0$1,500,000
Sammy Knight(S)$0$1,450,000
Aaron Ross(CB)$0$1,418,000
Mathias Kiwanuka(DE)$0$1,358,750

26,720,166


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