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#31 Darth Biscuit

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 09:00 AM

Most of the families running the various nations in the Middle East have been in power for hundreds of years. Its ludicrous to think that the US is somehow responsible for oppression in Saudia Arabia, Oman, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, Yemen, etc...


That's what I meant, did you miss my sarcasm or were you just agreeing with me?




wow that amazingly small percentage of people who have made money from the hydrocarbon economy really makes up for everything else.

It's not my defense and you just argued against yourself... you said that they were "systematically oppressed" by the US, did you not? But who is really oppresing them? It's their own governments that's who. It's like Deac says, they may be pissed at us for being on their soil and "corrupting" their values, but we do not oppress them, they do a fine job of that themselves.

so they should all organized in a proper ww2 style battle and get wiped out in a day? seems kind of foolish.

No obviously they cannot resist in that way... so is that your defense of them blowing up innocent people?


of who?[

Al Queada, PLO, Hamas, etc. all the arab terrorists groups and those that support them. And they do have a lot of support in middle eastern countries, although I am not saying 100% of all muslim arabs support terror. Just look at the aftermath of 911... thousands and thousands of Palestinians dancing and cheering in the streets.

of a small group. historically, most revolutionaries that resort to terrorist attacks due it as a means to polarize the populations of occupied and occupier countries in an effort to politicize the army presence and get them out. this was first done effectively in algeria and has kinda been the blueprint of anti-colonialism since then.


OK, so there's a precendence for these types of attacks, does make everything alright in your eyes?

#32 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 09:05 AM

Agreeing with you.

#33 cookinwithgas

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 09:44 AM

Of course we don't agree with them, they are against our interests.

When the Muhajadeen were wiping out Afgan villiages that supported the Soviet puppet regime back in the 1980s, we really didn't care. The Taliban do it now and they are subhuman.

Iraq gassing Iranian Army conscripts because they can't win a war they started? Here, have some of the important ingredients on us! Against the Kurds and Shiites while putting down an insurrection we promised to aid but then got cold feet on: terrible, unspeakable evil!

When we systematically destroyed entire populations in the Phillipines, it was for freedom and we as a nation supported it. When others do it, it's called "ethnic cleansing".

When we wiped out Vietnamese villiages on mere suspicion of aiding the VC, it was just "War is Hell". VC guerilla tactics made them sneaky, evil and vile.

We rationalize ours and our allies actions in order to justify our beliefs, but when our enemies use them they are evil and subhuman. Other then the number of enemies involved, what really, in the end, is the difference between carpet bombing a village and flying a plane into a building other than they get a greater return on their human investment?

#34 Delhommey

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 09:44 AM

To beat this point to death, the US has acted no worse than any empire in history. What annoys the world is how we act as we're superheros constantly ridding the world of evil and helping little old ladies cross the street.

#35 cookinwithgas

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 09:50 AM

True Dat. In fact given our power, we are probably a "better" nation than a lot of others. That still does not give us a pass, it just makes the bar get set higher for who we aspire to be.

#36 Darth Biscuit

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 10:02 AM

Of course we don't agree with them, they are against our interests.

When the Muhajadeen were wiping out Afgan villiages that supported the Soviet puppet regime back in the 1980s, we really didn't care. The Taliban do it now and they are subhuman.

Iraq gassing Iranian Army conscripts because they can't win a war they started? Here, have some of the important ingredients on us! Against the Kurds and Shiites while putting down an insurrection we promised to aid but then got cold feet on: terrible, unspeakable evil!

When we systematically destroyed entire populations in the Phillipines, it was for freedom and we as a nation supported it. When others do it, it's called "ethnic cleansing".

When we wiped out Vietnamese villiages on mere suspicion of aiding the VC, it was just "War is Hell". VC guerilla tactics made them sneaky, evil and vile.

We rationalize ours and our allies actions in order to justify our beliefs, but when our enemies use them they are evil and subhuman. Other then the number of enemies involved, what really, in the end, is the difference between carpet bombing a village and flying a plane into a building other than they get a greater return on their human investment?


I've never once said nor thought that the US is blamless, innocent, or that we have not at points in our history committed atrocities. We have killed innocent people and done things that were completely morally wrong.

Obviously the US has and does act in it's own best interest and in some cases much to the detriment of others. We should look out for ourselves, but act morally at the same time, and others should as well.

But I get sick of hearing people defending these terrorist cowards saying something like, "oh these poor muslim people, they have no choice than to blow up others so that their plight will be heard." That's ridiculous and people defending their actions by saying, "oh yeah, well the US has done the same thing in the past", piss me off. It me cliche' but, two wrongs don't make a right.

#37 Jangler

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 10:30 AM

As much as you want him to be, no, he is not...
yes he is



Brilliant.

#38 cookinwithgas

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 12:27 PM

I've never once said nor thought that the US is blamless, innocent, or that we have not at points in our history committed atrocities. We have killed innocent people and done things that were completely morally wrong.

Obviously the US has and does act in it's own best interest and in some cases much to the detriment of others. We should look out for ourselves, but act morally at the same time, and others should as well.

But I get sick of hearing people defending these terrorist cowards saying something like, "oh these poor muslim people, they have no choice than to blow up others so that their plight will be heard." That's ridiculous and people defending their actions by saying, "oh yeah, well the US has done the same thing in the past", piss me off. It me cliche' but, two wrongs don't make a right.


Who says that? But - if they weren't blowing themselves up, would any of us be talking about them? Or caring about anyone there at all as long as the oil kept flowing?

#39 natty

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 12:35 PM

Yes, and to me there are plenty of people around the world that get treated like sh*t and don't go around blowing up women and children... but hey, we made them become like that right? Couldn't be that their culture and religion does it...


Dude, you seriously can't post in the tinderbox. Every time I try to read your posts my eyes drift to the left.....

#40 Darth Biscuit

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 12:51 PM

Who says that? But - if they weren't blowing themselves up, would any of us be talking about them? Or caring about anyone there at all as long as the oil kept flowing?


Well, Fiz for one... and I don't know if we'd be talking about them if they weren't blowing people up... maybe not, but does that make it right?


Dude, you seriously can't post in the tinderbox. Every time I try to read your posts my eyes drift to the left.....


Sorry... hot ain't she? Full pics of her in the Lovely Ladies...

#41 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 01:01 PM

True Dat. In fact given our power, we are probably a "better" nation than a lot of others. That still does not give us a pass, it just makes the bar get set higher for who we aspire to be.

I know and have seen how the US can be on the wrong side many times. I read the Ugly American, and its mostly a true story.

But the one thing that really bothers me irt criticism of the US is that people sometimes believe that our government has more power and influence than it really does. It seems that some of our people think that the US government can overthrow any government that it chooses to using the CIA.

The truth is that the US government can sometimes influence things to go a certain way. But unless we involve ourselves militarily, we generally can't overthrow a government that is popular with most sections of a population. We don't have as much influence as some seem to think.

Take for example, the overthrow of the elected government in Iran which the shah replaced. Its true that we and the british supported the shah, provided funds and did a few things we shouldn't have done. But, the primary reason Mohammed Mosaddeq was overthrown is that he tried to bring a secular government into a muslim country and he angered the Shia clerics. Had he not lost the support of those clerics, the US support for the Shah would likely have meant very little.

#42 Delhommey

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 01:22 PM

That is a oversimplification of the '53 coup that's just as bad as the one you were trying to address.

#43 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 01:43 PM

That is a oversimplification of the '53 coup that's just as bad as the one you were trying to address.


Well, its a message board, don't have the time or space to go into an indepth discussion. But the shia clerics hold a great deal of power in Iran now and they did then. More than the CIA ever held.

The CIA and the Brits may have pushed some pieces around, but the pieces were already in place before the Western nations got involved.

Edited by Davidson Deac II, 01 February 2009 - 02:00 PM.


#44 rodeo

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 04:38 PM

obama is in way under his head.

#45 Fiz

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Posted 01 February 2009 - 05:29 PM

It's not my defense and you just argued against yourself... you said that they were "systematically oppressed" by the US, did you not? But who is really oppresing them? It's their own governments that's who.

using american made rifles with american intelligence and financial backing. im sure you know all about our little adventures in chile, argentina, greece, east timor, pakistan, and oh say 80s iraq just to name a few.

It's like Deac says, they may be pissed at us for being on their soil and "corrupting" their values, but we do not oppress them, they do a fine job of that themselves.

you should really read up on things like the imf and world bank they would bloooooooow your mind

No obviously they cannot resist in that way... so is that your defense of them blowing up innocent people?

from a military perspective it's all they can do.

you know the british used to bitch about americans not lining up right and proper on the battlefield and marching straight at them.

Al Queada, PLO, Hamas, etc. all the arab terrorists groups and those that support them.

Al Qaeda are f*cking lunatics and need to be wiped out.

the PLO officially recognized the state of Israel in 1993 and haven't done a damn thing since then.

Hamas is fighting a country that robbed them of their homeland, indiscriminately murders member of the west bank, and imposes strict economic sanctions on them and has basically destroyed their entire way of life. Hamas was also democratically elected, and instead of pissing and moaning that they're a terrorist organization, you should probably wonder why the people were driven to a point they'd elect them. Are you going to decry the israeli government when the people elect likud into power?

also if you want some fun reading about how the US and much of the western media is completely in the tank for Israel and didn't actually provide any honest coverage of the latest slaughter, plus a run through of how israel broke the truces, read this.

thousands and thousands of Palestinians dancing and cheering in the streets.

that was almost certainly staged

During exact view of the complete, not sent pictorial material it is noticeable that it is calm on the road drumherum. Only before the camera a group of scratched open children. The woman, whom with their joy-tumble in memory remains, continues shortly thereafter unmoved. Remarkably a man in a white T-shirt. It stimulates the children, and it gets new people again and again ran.

The woman, who went straight, says today, one promised its cake, if she is pleased before the camera. It was frightened, when it saw the pictures on the television. Never it looked forward about the attack to the USA. Truth? Production?


but if crowd reactions are a debatable point, what do you make of the millions who took to the streets of iran to mourn 9/11?

OK, so there's a precendence for these types of attacks, does make everything alright in your eyes?

not all the time.

Edited by Fiz, 01 February 2009 - 05:38 PM.



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