Jump to content





Photo
- - - - -

Want ot wait till after the first round to get a QB??


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
126 replies to this topic

#121 Urrymonster

Urrymonster

    Senior Member

  • Joined: 25-November 08
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • posts: 2,264
  • Reputation: 39
HUDDLER

Posted 22 February 2011 - 06:27 PM

we don't want to draft a project with the #1 overall.

every draft pick is a project.

so what we're saying is that we should never draft anyone with the #1 overall....esp a QB.

awesome stuff in here.


You frustrate me so much.

Half the time you make really valid and rational arguments and discussion, then follow it up with off the cuff smart-ass remarks which take thigns completely out of context.

Honestly. You must recognise that he has a much bigger learning curve than a prospect like AJ Green? Surely you can accept that his system is so foreign to what we will be using, that he will be realistically needing an entire season on the sidelines before he is ready to play in real-time? Surely you can appreciate that the amount of running QBs who have successfully transitioned into the NFL are few and far between, with none obtaining longevity because of their legs?

Cam has an incredible ceiling on his potential IF he proves he has the smarts to actually pick up a pro system. If he can't then he will just be an exceptionally gifted athlete playing at QB.

So many other players have the benefit of being much much much more pro ready than he is, yet people refuse to acknowledge that this makes him a more risky pick.

#122 teeray

teeray

    THE SWAGNIFICENT

  • Joined: 10-January 11
  • posts: 17,952
  • Reputation: 9,692
SUPPORTER

Posted 22 February 2011 - 06:29 PM

:rolleyes:

Again focusing on the irrelevant things to try and formulate an argument.

Prey tell me how he is supposed to ascertain defences coverages, depth of drop and which receiver will be favoured matchup wise if he is looking in a different direction to where his receivers are running their routes?

Believe it or not, but progressions actually include the routes of receivers as well, as the pre-snap reads will indicate which receiver is going to be able to find the gaps in coverage and who will need to make adjustments based on coverages. The receiver route will dictate how players react in zone, or if they are double covered via 'help over the top', so to think that you just pay attention to the defence is naive at best.

It's all and the same thing and most of the progressions you are thinking of occur pre-snap.

I will stand by the fact you can't learn anything about the defence if you are looking to an area of the field where there are no receivers...


And I completely disagree with that. Teams as well coached as SEC teams desguise defenses well so you have to read the defense post snap. If not you will be fooled and make bad decisions. Nice try though

#123 Urrymonster

Urrymonster

    Senior Member

  • Joined: 25-November 08
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • posts: 2,264
  • Reputation: 39
HUDDLER

Posted 22 February 2011 - 06:34 PM

And I completely disagree with that. Teams as well coached as SEC teams desguise defenses well so you have to read the defense post snap. If not you will be fooled and make bad decisions. Nice try though


The is a completely meaningless statement. You disagree with what exactly? I didn't say anything about what you commented on.

All defences try and disguise what they do. Unbelievably SEC defences are nothing compared to the NFL, neither are the coordinators. That is why I explained that you need to read the defence and see your receivers adjustments to be able to determine the best pass.

Most of the pre-snap reads are in fact impossible to disguise, so simply claiming everything is done post-snap is ridiculous.

I really don't know what you are even arguing about any more.

Can you even accept that Cam isn't perfect?

#124 teeray

teeray

    THE SWAGNIFICENT

  • Joined: 10-January 11
  • posts: 17,952
  • Reputation: 9,692
SUPPORTER

Posted 22 February 2011 - 06:56 PM

The is a completely meaningless statement. You disagree with what exactly? I didn't say anything about what you commented on.

All defences try and disguise what they do. Unbelievably SEC defences are nothing compared to the NFL, neither are the coordinators. That is why I explained that you need to read the defence and see your receivers adjustments to be able to determine the best pass.

Most of the pre-snap reads are in fact impossible to disguise, so simply claiming everything is done post-snap is ridiculous.

I really don't know what you are even arguing about any more.

Can you even accept that Cam isn't perfect?


Absolutely, only his imperfections are the similar to what most QB's coming out of college.

I just feel like he has been held to higher standard and has been victim to stereotypes and misinterpretations about the offense he ran and his ability to do the things necessary to become a big time pro.

I get a little tired of the trivializing of what he accomplished in college.

He has flaws but to me they aren't anything about his physical abilities or the offense he ran in college.

It is about his character. That is what I am interested to hear about.

But I have studied QB's for ten years and I haven't seen ANY questions in regards to his fundamentals or ability to diagnose a defense and make the correct throw. Things he need to clean up yes (especially his footwork), but those things I believe are minor in nature.

The questions I have are the same I have for ANY QB coming out of college. Adjusting to the speed, reading the defenses, making good decisions, etc.

My experience has shown me that the type of offense you ran in college does not seem to matter in making those adjustments.

I think he is a special talent that could be a once in a decade type talent. I am not alone on that assessment. many scouts agree with me.

And I get a little defensive when people attack a kid for reasons I deem unfair.

#125 CRA

CRA

    Senior Member

  • Joined: 25-November 08
  • posts: 27,262
  • Reputation: 5,361
Moderators

Posted 22 February 2011 - 07:02 PM

Cam has an incredible ceiling on his potential IF he proves he has the smarts to actually pick up a pro system. If he can't then he will just be an exceptionally gifted athlete playing at QB.

So many other players have the benefit of being much much much more pro ready than he is, yet people refuse to acknowledge that this makes him a more risky pick.


I think playing in a "pro ready" offense is overrated. Talent is more important. Cam has loads of it that can translate over to the NFL.

#126 rayzor

rayzor

    shula is who i thought he was.

  • Joined: 24-November 08
  • posts: -28,749
  • Reputation: 8,000
Moderators

Posted 22 February 2011 - 07:07 PM

You frustrate me so much.

Half the time you make really valid and rational arguments and discussion, then follow it up with off the cuff smart-ass remarks which take thigns completely out of context.

Honestly. You must recognise that he has a much bigger learning curve than a prospect like AJ Green? Surely you can accept that his system is so foreign to what we will be using, that he will be realistically needing an entire season on the sidelines before he is ready to play in real-time? Surely you can appreciate that the amount of running QBs who have successfully transitioned into the NFL are few and far between, with none obtaining longevity because of their legs?

Cam has an incredible ceiling on his potential IF he proves he has the smarts to actually pick up a pro system. If he can't then he will just be an exceptionally gifted athlete playing at QB.

So many other players have the benefit of being much much much more pro ready than he is, yet people refuse to acknowledge that this makes him a more risky pick.

people in here have an unrealistic expectation of what a first pick overall should be....esp in regards to QB.

the player has to start right away and the QB has to be perfect. for some reason the QB is set to a higher standard than every other player.

i know you and others are probably going to say that getting the QB wrong will set a team back further behind than any other position, but i just don't think thats true. a blown first round pick is a blown first round pick. you get it wrong and you have just blown a perfectly good pick and probably a good bit of money. people are just scared of the high profile pick busting, but whats funny is that QBs don't have a higher bust rate than most positions.

what is going to set this franchise back is they idea that the QB has to be QB or someone just like him. what is really more likely to set the franchise back a few years is sitting on our collective asses waiting for that perfect QB to come around. we're afraid of taking a risk.

the idea that gets tossed around and accepted as conventional wisdom is the hold off because there are better choices next year and/or pick up an older vet as a stop gap while we wait for a young guy that we have around already or some guy we draft next year. as was said in that other thread discussing it, if that was such a great idea, more people would be doing it. we would also be seeing it work but we aren't seeing much of it and when we see it, it isn't working.

so why should we do it?

and in regards to waiting till next year to draft one, what makes anyone think that we will have access to a great prospect next year? luck still might supposedly be the only QB worth a crap and if he is, then he will go to the team with the first pick overall, which very well will not be us. so then what? we wait until the next year?

do we try drafting one in a later round? thats a BS idea. you are taking much more of a risk overall by hoping that one of the guys you find in the 2nd or later rounds can do the job. and we might be one of the lucky few who is able to find their franchise QB in the later rounds, but that is a HUGE crapshoot. if we are serious about getting a franchise QB, we wouldn't mess with any QB after the first round. best chance we have is by taking one in the first.

when luck was an option for us this year, i thknk the possible choice of him really set the bar too high. now, unless he is the perfect QB, we don't want him. our butts are still raw from that reaming. we need to get over that. any QB we pick is going to have a good bit of risk involved. any QB we pick is going to be a project...even andrew frikkin luck would be a project.

we want them to be able to come in right away and play like a stud. you know what? that isn't going to happen. not even for a first overall, no matter what year you draft them. they all will have a learning curve.

you asked about newton's learning curve. yes, there will be one and it will be greater than for say a WR like green or a CB like peterson. here's the deal with that...the QB is a harder job to play. for any QB the learning curve is greater than with other positions. that doesn't mean that we should avoid them, but i think that most in here would just because they are afraid of a QB having to take a couple years before he gets it right.

newton is a good prospect. you might find some who say he isn't a first overall pick (even though that number is shrinking), but very few would take him out of the first round. why? because he's good. very good. his ceiling is incredibly high.

if we draft him most likely he will be starting...thats just the way it goes and for good reasons, teams are realizing how beneficial it is to get the QB in there early and get his knocks and get his chemistry with his team growing. they know he will be able to learn quicker in the game and with solid coaching/teaching than from watching on the sidelines. they have also figured out how to put the QB in a situation that he doesn't implode in like detroit did with harrington and the texans did with carr. they got it figured out and it has been really successful.

newton isn't a worse pick than all of the guys who have gotten picked in the past few years in the first round and started. he is on the level with most of them. there is very little reason why he couldn't go in the game with a similar game plan and do just as well. if our coaching staff is worth a crap, they will be able to find a way to make it work. you've got to have some faith in what they can do.

if he does well on the wonderlic and interviews well, you better be getting ready for him to be our selection.

i guarantee you hat this coaching staff is a lot more intent on getting the QB situation fixed than most of you are. most of you are still stuck with fox's mentality that tries to play it safe, eliminating risk, but ending up being nothing more than an average team.

#127 teeray

teeray

    THE SWAGNIFICENT

  • Joined: 10-January 11
  • posts: 17,952
  • Reputation: 9,692
SUPPORTER

Posted 22 February 2011 - 07:07 PM

You frustrate me so much.

Half the time you make really valid and rational arguments and discussion, then follow it up with off the cuff smart-ass remarks which take thigns completely out of context.

Honestly. You must recognise that he has a much bigger learning curve than a prospect like AJ Green? Surely you can accept that his system is so foreign to what we will be using, that he will be realistically needing an entire season on the sidelines before he is ready to play in real-time? Surely you can appreciate that the amount of running QBs who have successfully transitioned into the NFL are few and far between, with none obtaining longevity because of their legs?

Cam has an incredible ceiling on his potential IF he proves he has the smarts to actually pick up a pro system. If he can't then he will just be an exceptionally gifted athlete playing at QB.

So many other players have the benefit of being much much much more pro ready than he is, yet people refuse to acknowledge that this makes him a more risky pick.


For instance dismissing a guy as a running QB even though he threw for nearly 3,000 yards and 30 td's is unfair.

Saying he isn't pro ready is a blanket statement that to me has no basis in fact.

What constitutes someone being pro ready?? I have already shown that QB's from pro systems have a higher fail rate than QB's from other systems so what constitutes "pro ready" it is another blanket statement that can be neither proven true or false until the player actually plays in the NFL.

People said Joe Flacco, Ben Roethlisberger, and Sam Bradford were deemed not "pro ready" for different reasons (Flacco bc of his competition in college, and Bradford and Big Ben bc of the offenses they ran), yet they all had success their first years on the field.

So it is a statement that is impossible to prove.