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Fiz

Did any of you South Carolinians actually look at the Demint Amendment?

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and i think arguing over employee pay is a red herring which disguises the real issue.

I've never built a car. i don't know what goes into it or what it takes, so I don't know if they're being overpaid.

are they being overpaid in comparison to what people in another country without any laws protecting workers would get paid? yes.

Fair enough.

I'm not an expert either, but I remember being told how much just regular workers make and it was very shocking.

I agree there needs to be laws to protect workers, but it's not working in it's current form.

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and i think arguing over employee pay is a red herring which disguises the real issue.

I've never built a car. i don't know what goes into it or what it takes, so I don't know if they're being overpaid.

are they being overpaid in comparison to what people in another country without any laws protecting workers would get paid? yes.

I've heard that labor is about 10% of the cost to build a car in Detroit. I heard this from a UAW member, so I take it with a grain of salt. Seems kind of low when you factor in that Detroit automakers have around 800,000 UAW retirees. These retirees cost money. My aunt received a Family Discount on a Saturn last January because her Uncle worked for GM- 25 years ago. That is f*cked up.

Something else regarding non-auto unions.... My association just sponsored a large trade show that took place in Chicago at McCormick PLace last month. Do you know how much the Union electrician made, for one hour minimum, to plug in a lamp on one of our exhibitors displays........ $95/HR Straight Time; $132/HR Overtime; and $171/HR Double Time (weekend rate). A Rigger Foreman's rates are: $95.35/HR ST; $143/HR OT; and $190.70 DT. All this labor has 1 hour minimum and for items like a forklift, you have to hire 2 guys because of union rules. One guy to drive the truck and one guy to spot (which means walking in front or behind as a second set of eyes).

I'd say that's more than an electrician working at a trade show hall in a right-to-work state is making. Atlanta is a prime example.

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I've heard that labor is about 10% of the cost to build a car in Detroit. I heard this from a UAW member, so I take it with a grain of salt. Seems kind of low when you factor in that Detroit automakers have around 800,000 UAW retirees. These retirees cost money. My aunt received a Family Discount on a Saturn last January because her Uncle worked for GM- 25 years ago. That is f*cked up.

That's another ginormous part of it, along with the fact they can retire far earlier than regular workers on full pension too I believe. My one uncle worked for years for a company who supplied a union auto maker with certain parts and has talked about that issue to us. Foreign auto makers don't have those discounts and don't have unions and are doing better sales wise, aren't they? If you allocate a bunch of $$ to guys who are "off the books" in retirement or workers who can't be fired or make about 75% more than what their actual skill level merits solely due to union mandates not a free market competition, it keeps you from spending elsewhere like R & D. That's just common sense. Think of it like an NFL team trying to operate under a salary cap. If they have a lot of the cap going to dead $$ like guys they have cut, they can't be as competitive.

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dammit we spend too much on health care

THAT'S the reason no one is buying the aztec!

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if only we didn't have to pay these retiremet benefits those stockpiles of SSRs would be flying off the shelf!

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As I said, the amount and extent of the benefit spending limits R & D. When our company started having to pay the piper for irresponsible spending, the first thing they did was take away benefits. We had the choice of going elsewhere to find work if we were that put out by it. Most didn't because the bennies were still decent. The reason the union guys don't is that no one else on earth is going to pay them 85 K for that type of work, simple as that.

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As I said, the amount and extent of the benefit spending limits R & D.

how do you explain ford continuing to produce innovative new cars, or surviving this holocaust, with comparable unions and health care payments?

the simple fact of the matter is that Chrylser and GM have been run by marketers for the last twenty years without sustainable business models. Basing your entire product line on unsustainable SUVs without a single good, mid sized, gas conscious car is not going to succeed. even if they didn't have to pay a single dime to their employees healthcare, they wouldn't make any money because they make shitty cars.

having no money to go into R&D, as stupid an idea as that is, has nothing to do with them going "HEY LETS MAKE THE SAME SUV BUT MAKE IT BIGGER!"

You really think this was the result of a lack of R&D?

hummer-h2-safari.jpg

of course not. it was the result of them trying to take advantage of shallow nationalist sentiment after 911 with an unsustainable gas guzzling poorly made piece of poo because their marketing department told them it would sell.

you really have to know nothing about cars to think that chevy and gm's problems are due to lack of R&D. lol

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I never said that was the whole issue.

The fact of the matter is that I don't know what the entirety of their problems are caused by. I just know that overspending where it isn't needed doesn't help any company grow.

You know what, just a tip...a lot of times (like your last statement in the above post) you are quite condescending in your tone and it doesn't help discussion.

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Where is the giveaway to the rich? What the f**k does Krugman know? It's a hell of a sight better that what Obama just rammed up our asses!.

Fixed it.

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