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Socialized Health Care

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Posted

lol like what

please say healthcare saving accounts so i can rip it up.

There are so many things to be done it would take me forever so I'll just give an idea.

If government power is eliminated (do away with the FDA - whose restrictions benefit the most powerful companies by eliminating most competition), those same companies would have to use their funds and resources to sell their drugs to the most people in the least expensive, most reliable and safest way. They would need to outperform their competitors to get your money - otherwise they lose business.

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Posted

Get the drug lobby out of capitol hill and strike the laws from the books that funnel insurance funds into the big pharmaceutical companies that our lawmakers are in bed with.

Healthcare costs would go down by 30%, guaranteed.

On the old board I laid out several examples of laws that were specially tailored to give big pharm all of our $$ for the same drugs that they sell abroad for a fraction of the cost. Seeing as I've been swamped at work, I don't really have the time to do this.

For the record, I'd like to input that I have an HSA and I love it. I recognize that it isn't really meant for everyone, though.

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Posted

There are so many things to be done it would take me forever so I'll just give an idea.

If government power is eliminated (do away with the FDA - whose restrictions benefit the most powerful companies by eliminating most competition), those same companies would have to use their funds and resources to sell their drugs to the most people in the least expensive, most reliable and safest way. They would need to outperform their competitors to get your money - otherwise they lose business.

lol this couldn't be more wrong. eliminating regulation would give rise to small competition? merck would suddenly not be able to elbow out smaller companies/buy them out?

i mean jesus look at the across the board deregulation that has gone on for the last 8 years and tell me that it increased competition.

if the fda were eliminated and drugs were to be allowed to go directly to the public, it would be a complete cluster fug combining company rigged testing and drugs that kill .3% fewer than the competition.

let me put this another way. US pharmaceutical companies in 2008 spent just as much on lobbying as they did on research, and twice as much on advertising. the solution to rising prescription costs in the united states lies in fixing the pharmaceutical companies themselves, not doing away with a federal agency that's already painfully unfunded as it is.

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Posted

For the record, I'd like to input that I have an HSA and I love it. I recognize that it isn't really meant for everyone, though.

hope you don't smoke, eat fatty food, ever have anything resembling an unsafe sexual encounter (probably a safe bet for you) or have a family history of cancer, heart disease, or anything degenerative because that HSA would vanish in a second and you'd be left broke and penniless, dragging your family and loved ones down with you as they auctioned off the last of their furniture to buy one more chemo shot for you, hoping that was the one that gave you another 3 months of painful, medication free life.

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Posted

From what I've experienced here in Spain, socialized heath care isn't that bad. At least the Spanish system isn't. Most of the time you see the doctor right away and all the facilities are great.

The only problem I have with it is that many people here are on a waiting list for surgeries. Also, I've heard a horror story from my friend who went to a clinic in a larger city. She had to see the doctor like five times before the finally realized that she needed to see a specialist. But, this is something that happens in the US too.

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Posted

hope you don't smoke, eat fatty food, ever have anything resembling an unsafe sexual encounter (probably a safe bet for you) or have a family history of cancer, heart disease, or anything degenerative because that HSA would vanish in a second and you'd be left broke and penniless, dragging your family and loved ones down with you as they auctioned off the last of their furniture to buy one more chemo shot for you, hoping that was the one that gave you another 3 months of painful, medication free life.

I don't think you know much about HSAs. HSAs have a yearly maximum expense out of the account. After that, the insurance company usually pays 100%. It's a true crisis model system.

(However, just like any other health insurance model, the insurance provider can increase your premium if you're costing them too much.)

So if I get cancer this year, the max I would ever have to pay out of the account to which my employer contributes is $2100.

ever have anything resembling an unsafe sexual encounter (probably a safe bet for you)

As long as anonymous butsechs encounters don't count. :Angel_anim:

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Posted

I don't think you know much about HSAs. HSAs have a yearly maximum expense out of the account. After that, the insurance company usually pays 100%. It's a true crisis model system.

After that, the insurance company usually pays 100%. It's a true crisis model system.

the insurance company usually pays 100%.

lol

HSAs are a joke, and the only thing keeping that joke from being told is the fact that there is no long term study done for it due to it being relatively new.

My whole family pretty much is in public health, and this is the main problem with HSAs. If you're a young, relatively healthy guy, you think it's a great deal. you don't have to pay for much at all, and you only put in the money you want. On top of that, you're actually investing all the funds.

However, of course, since this is your money, it's going to dissuade you from any preventative care that you don't immediately see a need for, like yearly check ups, blood tests, injuries that you're just going to "walk off." this is sorta amplified by the fact that the majority of people who have these (young, low risk) lead a pretty unhealthy lifestyle. They generally at least drink, and a good portion smoke. no one in this country eats healthy food. they generally work too much so they're stressed out, etc etc

eventually these problems that they're ignoring because they want to save money are going to blossom into much larger problems. nagging coughs become emphysema, high blood pressure becomes hypertension, that damn wrist injury turns into arthritis, etc.

now those are all extreme examples, of course, and im not saying that you particularly do all of those things. however, even if you didn't, you couldn't honestly say that you don't know people that do. that you don't have friends or family that you can tell are going to need intensive medical treatment at some point in their lives.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's essentially a system that runs fundamentally counter to what pretty much all healthcare officials say is needed, which is an emphasis on preventative medicine. like i said earlier, there's not a lot of information due to them being relatively new, but we can take what we know from other things and make pretty a good hypothesis of how it's going to turn out, and that is that HSA are almost certainly going to cost more money in the long run.

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Posted

The insurance company DOES pay 100%. Dunno why I said usually.

I think we've argued before about forced preventative healthcare vs. crisis model before. It's a difference of opinion.

I personally think that it's a great idea for me to save my insurance money while I'm young and healthy for a day in the future when I'm middle aged and have high blood pressure and arthritis. It's the way insurance was initially intended to be.

And if a person puts off preventative care, that's his own fault. Of course I'm always in favor of restoring responsibility and self-reliance to the individual. Call me old fashioned, whatever.

Preventative care shouldn't be forced on people.

The point about it costing more money in the long run -- are you sure? Future Value > Present Value. $5000 in your pocket now is worth more than a promise of $5000 tomorrow, without even counting interest.

If I spend $200/month in preventative care, how can you tell me that 20 years down the road when the present value of that money is in the hundreds of thousands, that it will have saved me that amount of money in crisis treatment? There isn't even close to a guarantee of prevention from constant medical care... in fact, real-life statistics indicate the opposite, that if you're predisposed to get heart disease, chances are you're going to get it, and all the preventative care in the world won't stop it.

So to conclude:

HSA -

Pros: Supply side solution, economically solvent, less socialized and therefore usually less expensive for most consumers and more efficient for the system. Encourages people to take responsibility for their own health. Individuals can spend their money on any health related service they want including alternative meds or new technology.

Cons: Discourages preventative care; if one is very sick, deductibles and premiums skyrocket. Keeps more healthy "donor" insurance payers out of the more social system, creating higher costs for everyone in regular insurance.

Traditional healthcare with emphasis on preventative medicine: (government controlled or not)

Pros: Demand side solution, offers individuals easy access to their own health status. More of the cost of healthcare is hidden from the individual. Higher demand for doctors and thus better pay and more job security for them.

Cons: Because much of the cost of healthcare is hidden from the individual, often the individuals feel entitled to more care than they need. This increases demand on the system and increases cost for everyone.

Consumer ends up paying more every year. Individuals usually cannot use their insurance to pay for alternate medication and usually has limited doctor visits every year. If one gets sick, deductibles and premiums skyrocket.

Even when looking at the specifics, HSA still looks like a winner to me.

If your family is in healthcare, I can see why they don't like it. It utimately takes money and job security from them.

(PS... my wife's been coughing this week, better take her to the doctor before it turns to emphysema ;))

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Posted

I think I came to grip with what fiz is saying. We need big government to get even bigger. They, the government, can fug up things six ways from Sunday, but they should be in charge of our health. Yeah, they know best!

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Posted

And if a person puts off preventative care, that's his own fault. Of course I'm always in favor of restoring responsibility and self-reliance to the individual. Call me old fashioned, whatever.

it doesn't matter whos fault it is. the society and government will bear the burden when they can't pay.

Preventative care shouldn't be forced on people.

where did I say it should be?

it should definitely be encouraged, however, since that's ultimately cheaper and more efficient.

The point about it costing more money in the long run -- are you sure? Future Value > Present Value. $5000 in your pocket now is worth more than a promise of $5000 tomorrow, without even counting interest.

health care costs increase almost geometrically as a problem worsens. if you don't understand that then, well, there's not much I can do for you. the rise in healthcare costs in this country is outpacing inflation for christ's sake.

also if you're going to try to tell me you can put dollar value on a healthy life, then you're f*cking out of your mind. since you're using extreme examples, are you really going to feel good when you can afford to have your legs amputated after the pancreatic cancer you never had detected because you refused to spend the small amount of money on a check up ravishes your digestive, reproductive, digestive and neuromuscular systems?

If I spend $200/month in preventative care, how can you tell me that 20 years down the road when the present value of that money is in the hundreds of thousands, that it will have saved me that amount of money in crisis treatment? There isn't even close to a guarantee of prevention from constant medical care...

of course there isn't. however, yearly check ups are going to be able to spot something earlier, and the earlier you can spot something the more likely you're going to be able to treat it successfully and at less cost to you and your family.

in fact, real-life statistics indicate the opposite, that if you're predisposed to get heart disease, chances are you're going to get it, and all the preventative care in the world won't stop it.

oh whelp can't do anything to make it better.

/smokes cigaretts

/drinks

/becomes huge burden on family when money he thinks was enough vanishes after first year of treatment

Pros: Supply side solution, economically solvent, less socialized and therefore usually less expensive for most consumers and more efficient for the system.

meaningless republican talking point? check

banal use of the word socialized? check

gross generalizations without supporting evidence? check

loose reference to a "system?" check

Encourages people to take responsibility for their own health.

this assumes any disease is a rational actor which is ludicrous. if you believe you can completely insulate yourself from illness just by having responsibility you're out of your mind.

Individuals can spend their money on any health related service they want including alternative meds or new technology.

ahh yes, the greatest red herring of them all; choice. why do people think they're more able to decide what's best for them than a doctor, especially when we're dealing with knowledge that takes the smartest people our society has about a decade to learn?

Traditional healthcare with emphasis on preventative medicine: (government controlled or not)

More of the cost of healthcare is hidden from the individual.

this is patently untrue

like i already said, american pay more in healthcare related taxes than any country in the world.

Higher demand for doctors and thus better pay and more job security for them.

this isn't true at all. doctors abroad get paid significantly less (though still significantly more than the rest of the population) abroad than they do in the states. this is due to numerous factors. however, if you think doctors have a problem with job security in this country, you couldn't be more wrong.

also payscale for doctors varies so wildly between specialization that it's really a useless metric for anything and difficult to apply, unless you want to compare what an oncologist in france makes compared to an oncologist in california.

Cons: Because much of the cost of healthcare is hidden from the individual, often the individuals feel entitled to more care than they need.

just your opinion that you can't prove.

This increases demand on the system and increases cost for everyone.

ludicrous statement not supported by easily available and overwhelming facts and observation

Consumer ends up paying more every year.

seriously do you know anything about this at all.

Individuals usually cannot use their insurance to pay for alternate medication and usually has limited doctor visits every year.

neither one of these is true at all.

for example, in france, spain, sweden, etc, you can see any doctor as many times a year that you need. access to specialty medicine is not a problem in cities. once you get out, it becomes a problem, not unlike here in the states where a small town in deer f*ck iowa doesn't have an acupuncturist.

also, the term "alternative medicine" is needlessly obtuse and pretty worthless. if you have a specific one you don't think is available list it and i'll gladly prove you wrong.

If one gets sick, deductibles and premiums skyrocket.

skyrocketing premiums you say? GOD FORBID!

also you're wrong...again

Even when looking at the specifics, HSA still looks like a winner to me.

these aren't specifics at all. you're amazingly misinformed.

If you're family is in healthcare, I can see why they don't like it. It utimately takes money and job security from them.

this isn't true at all.

they're in administration, and people like you insure that there will always be a need for intensive geriatric care services.

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Posted

I think I came to grip with what fiz is saying. We need big government to get even bigger. They, the government, can f*ck up things six ways from Sunday, but they should be in charge of our health. Yeah, they know best!

the only governmental organization that receives sufficient funding at the moment is the military

shut up you child

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Posted

the only governmental organization that receives significant funding at the moment is the military

shut up you child

Actually, most of our tax money goes to income security, at 22%. Only 20% of tax money goes to our protection (national defense and public safety). That's in a tie with health care (medicaid and medicare).

Who's your daddy?

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