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Socialized Health Care


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#51 Jase

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 09:29 PM

Agree to disagree. I think the economic principle of empowering the individual is viable and can be successful in most cases as it relates to healthcare. I obviously think that hiding the system from the individual for his or her own good is both immoral, and inefficient from an economic perspective.

You obviously disagree.

#52 Jase

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 09:32 PM

it's unsubstantiated that doctors make less in europe than the do in the united states? no it's not at all.

also, an emphasis on primary care would only really require more hours for general practitioners, which would decrease the requirement for more invasive, time intensive procedures at later stages of illnesses that wouldn't happen.

it's not unrelated at all. discussing pay scales of all MDs across an unbelievably wide breadth of specialties is pretty useless. it's like if I tried to compare the salaries of anyone who makes food in America vs what they make in another country. regardless of the point the example was connected to, it wouldn't be a very telling comparison.


I was not only pointing out that you didn't support your argument, but that it also didn't matter because it wasn't related to my point. And you did no better in this post to establish a link between what your point and what I said.

You either don't understand my point, or you're trying to make a connection that isn't there. I don't know which one it is.

Edited by Jase, 15 February 2009 - 09:35 PM.


#53 Fiz

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 09:34 PM

Proof otherwise?

so one of the cruxes of your belief is just something that can't be disproven? that's incredibly intellectually dishonest.

Where is your overwhelming fact and observation to the contrary?

Right here.

Or in graph form.

Posted Image

If you argue that more "consumer choice" gives "more information" and lowers costs then it would logically follow that a more centralized, government controlled system would be more expensive per capita, and that's clearly not true.

Edited by Fiz, 15 February 2009 - 09:45 PM.


#54 Fiz

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 09:43 PM

Link?

This is a nice little site. treatment for what is widely described as alternative medicine is generally covered on a scale determined by efficacy, depending on country. things that are overwhelmingly proven to have visible, observable affects are covered fully, while things like drinking tea to cure cancer are not. France, for example, gives FAR more leniency to new mothers in regards to what they cover than say great britain. at some point the french decided that no one person can figure out what women want, especially after child care, and it'd probably be more cost effective to just let them have whatever they wanted then try to study it.

anyone with a wife who's had a child can attest to this.

as far as limited number of visits, i've honestly never heard that before. i think you're just misinterpreting something else.

Did I say available? Or covered?

my mistake. please give me an example of uncovered "alternative medicine"

If your main argument against an HSA is it has a similar problem as the alternative, is it really an argument?

I meant that to point out that "skyrocketing" is a gross exaggeration.

i think at this point you just started getting pissy and demanding information that had already been posted and you hadn't read. I think i was pretty thorough here though.

#55 Jase

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 09:47 PM

so one of the cruxes of your belief is just something that can't be disproven? that's incredibly intellectually dishonest.


Isn't that exactly what you're doing by telling me I'm wrong "just 'cause"?

Right http://dll.umaine.ed.../U.S. HCweb.pdf

Or in graph form.

Posted Image

If you argue that more "consumer choice" gives "more information" and lowers costs then it would logically follow that a more centralized, government controlled system would be more expensive per capita, and that's clearly not true.


How in the world does that address the original statement of:

This increases demand on the system and increases cost for everyone.


You're comparing apples to giraffes.

To address your supposed point, you're assuming that I think our country already has good consumer choice and high access to information than our international counterparts. Unfortunately this is not the case, as I've been saying this entire time. Over and over again.

#56 Jase

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 09:56 PM

i think at this point you just started getting pissy and demanding information that had already been posted and you hadn't read. I think i was pretty thorough here though.


I was calling out your hypocrisy for criticizing my rhetoric for lack of detail when you yourself have had barely anything to say but "you're wrong".

When I called you out on this, you did a quick google search for something that looked topically related in order to look like you knew what you were talking about. Sad really.

But after looking at what you've posted, you still haven't posted anything that remotely contradicts me. I get it. Healthcare in america is expensive. That's not the debate. The debate is why it's expensive, and what we can do about it.

I say give the individual more control and responsibility and the system will be more efficient.

You say give the government bureaucracy more power and that will fix things, just look at the rest of the world. The problem is that the rest of the world isn't like america.

#57 Fiz

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 09:57 PM

How in the world does that address the original statement of:

i explained it quite clearly already, but once again. your original entire statement was a con against whatever you think traditional medicine is (socialized medicine in europe predates hmos for example but that's besides the point)

Because much of the cost of healthcare is hidden from the individual, often the individuals feel entitled to more care than they need. This increases demand on the system and increases cost for everyone.

this leads me to think you believe that less government influence = more knowledge = less cost which is, as i've shown, demonstrably wrong.

To address your supposed point, you're assuming that I think our country already has good consumer choice and high access to information than our international counterparts.

so at times europe doesn't cover alternative medicines (less choice) and now the US has less choice?

also does europe have a better internet or something

#58 Fiz

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 10:04 PM

But after looking at what you've posted, you still haven't posted anything that remotely contradicts me.

what in the world are you talking about? I've pretty much debunked all of the points you use to come to your assumption that HSA are the only way to go. I really don't think your argument has anything to stand on. Not once have you supported your stance with anything rational. Your reasons for believing what you do are apparently truisms and generalizations.

I say give the individual more control and responsibility and the system will be more efficient.

this makes about as much sense as saying air travel would be less expensive if we just flew the planes ourselves.

The problem is that the rest of the world isn't like america.

argument to american exclusionism are very weak and baseless. The united states of america has done things no other country can and ever will do. saying "we're not europe" is pretty meaningless.

really it doesn't seem like you want to learn anything. you keep calling me names, yet I'm the one doing research.

earlier you said all i ever wanted was the last word. go nuts.

#59 pstall

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Posted 15 February 2009 - 10:10 PM

Nice duel here between fiz and jase.
HSA's are yet another quiver to hopefully add some stability in pricing and care while other fish get fried.
I agree totally with fiz on preventitive care. I don't know what type research you have done in that area fiz but your routine examines, physicals etc are covered up front.
So essentially your basics are good.

The current system, yes, needs to be revamped.
But lets not use Spain or France. Those countries pale in population and are nowhere as culturally diverse as the US. There are unintended consequences of being that open of a societey.
One of which is health care. Stwall said earlier about just the hospital he is at LOSES 18 million a year!! ONE hospital for indigent care.
So that costs gets eaten or passed on to someone else.
For me I say you tackle that issue by creating metrics. WHO is NOT paying those bills? WHAT type of treatment/visits keep that going?
The double edge sword is to never turn someone away period, but then the trick is the costs afterwords.

Here is what I have said a ton of times for HC and other items.
Create a saftey net tax choice(oxymoronic I know) of allowing people to choose a set dollar amount to allocate to lets call them cost bottlenecks.
Take a county of 400k. 200k pay taxes. There is no way all 400 are going to the hospital each year. In fact 200 might barely being going.
So each person that pays taxes has an option to pay into 3 greater good canals.
One is health care, one is education, one could be law enforcement/fire.
It would be areas that the overall population uses and benefits from. Simple assumption I think.
The county/state would apply the directed funds accordingly but still maintain its own budget.
Some might say they want to pay more toward school because they have kids or grandkids or nieces and nephews. Others might not have any young in school and say law enforcement.
While another group may say they understand the need for healthcare.
Like some toll roads that cost a little more but the use of it is a progressive tax, you use this canal system to create a small net.
When you build models based off taxation you limit yourself. When you build it where taxation is PART and not the whole, you create flexibility.
Many states are low on funds because of unemployment and no tax revenue from foreclosures you have to take a step back realize that is backwards.
Let me let me let me get an upgrade.

Edited by pstall, 15 February 2009 - 10:12 PM.