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Does Chud. Run a West Coast Offense?


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#91 panthers55

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 02:47 PM

exactly....but there has to be a legitmate threat of going to those vertical routes. With Clausen defenses know if you bring a little pressure then Clausen is going to ignore those options.


You do have to have teams respect your downfield attack or it essentially puts one of your receivers down the field as a decoy. So yeah you have to air it out occasionally. And while I am open to see what Newton and Clausen do this year, I would agree that last year Clausen was afraid to throw it down the field. I haven't been to training camp so far, so I can't say that he isn't doing it now exept for reports from camp where he seems not to be doing it that often.

#92 CRA

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 02:50 PM

You do have to have teams respect your downfield attack or it essentially puts one of your receivers down the field as a decoy. So yeah you have to air it out occasionally. And while I am open to see what Newton and Clausen do this year, I would agree that last year Clausen was afraid to throw it down the field. I haven't been to training camp so far, so I can't say that he isn't doing it now exept for reports from camp where he seems not to be doing it that often.


and if teams know those routes are decoys and not threats it lets them focus on your other routes......

so far from camp, Cam makes those routes threats.....Clausen makes them decoys.

#93 Sword

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 02:55 PM

Clausen has -in my opinion- a fatal flaw and it's why no he is hesitant to throw downfield and why no team will really honor the deepball threat with him in there: Being 6'2 and his sidearm mechanics..with his natural motion the ball is always going to get batted down or picked easily because of the low trajectory..when he tries to be delibrate with his deep ball it just ends up being a big windup floater that's just as dangerous. Philip Rivers can get away with his arm motion since he's taller and the ball will just come out higher because of that. You would think with all the QB coaching he got as a child would have developed perfect mechanics..don't know how that got screwed up along the way.

#94 Fan01

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 04:03 PM

Every football fan should read the book, "The Seven Games that Changed the Game." by Ron Jaworski. He picks 7 games from NFL history and really breaks them down. By doing so you get a great explanation of the different systems that are run in the NFL in intricate detail from a QB who played the game. Great book and really enhanced my knowledge of football.

http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/0345517954

#95 edromeo

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 05:50 PM

Chud runs the Coryell offense not the current (Walsh) WCO.
In a sense Chudz runs the "original" WCO.

Here's a a few sentences from a couple of great articles about the Coryell offense and about Chudz's offense in general must read for any serious football X's and O's junnkie/ Panther's fan:



http://www.catscratchreader.com/2011/2/5/1975521/so-what-will-the-offense-look-like-in-2011-part-one



http://www.catscratchreader.com/2011/6/1/2200621/getting-to-brass-tacks-what-will-be-the-differences-in-chudzinskis

Anyone read the links in the above quote?

#96 diehard panther#1

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 08:35 PM

Chud is running a Eastcoast offence now!!! ;)

#97 panthers55

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 08:41 PM

Anyone read the links in the above quote?


Yeah I read them six months ago when Cyberjag wrote the article. Good read.

#98 panthers55

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 08:54 PM

Part of the issue is that there are 3 basic systems and all of the 32 teams run some version of them. So we are either running an air coryell or west coast offense or some version of both. There are very fews teams that strictly run one system or the other all of the time.

#99 carpanfan96

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 09:26 PM

Air Coryell - Can either be ran with two philosophies

1. Power Run to set up pass - Original John Fox in Carolina style of play

2. Pass to set up the run.


Deeper to intermediate routes usually 7, 8, 9's for 1-2 WR's the other receivers run crossing routes, flats, so forth. The intended purpose of the deep route is to pull the safety and open up the Crossing routes.

Depending on who's version of the Air Coryell offense that's being ran, those cross routes can be shallow 5-10 yards or intermediate 10-15/20 yards.

It's a timing based offense still built off of the 3 and 5 step drops, will have more 7 step drops then the Walsh WCO because of longer routes.

If it's ran pass first, the passing game's intention is to stretch the field both vertically and horizontally to open up the run game and the potential for YAC.

Differences from the WCO.

Typically runs deeper routes on the outside and the QB has more freedom on where to go with the ball.


WCO - Generally ran pass first to open up the run.

Walsh's system generally ran 3 and 5 step drops, but did incorporate some 7 step drops occasionally. Set up to stretch the field horizontally to allow for YAC and longer gains on run plays.

Plays were set up where routes pulled the defense apart and allowed the QB to go to a designated receiver that the play was set up for.

Largely timing based and incorporated a ton of crossing routes, outs, slants and so forth. Quick easy completions that allowed the offense to both control the clock and generate first downs in an easier fashion to allow his coaching philosophy to shine through.

Walsh's coaching was simply based upon his though that if the Offense could get 25 first downs plus the team have good Special Teams play that it would generally allow wins to come in an easy fashion.


They are both still based off of Sid Gillman's offense and are timing based passing offenses in the sense that the base of the offenses are still based off of the same philosophies.

Spread the defense to allow the shallow or crossing routes to come open for 5-20 yard gains and make running the ball easier. The main difference between the two is once has deep routes ran more often then the other because it stretches the field both vertically and horizontally instead of just horizontally.


For Newton or Clausen to run Chud's offense effectively they "WILL" have to take chances down the field at least 5 times a game if not more.


I do like that Chud is adding in option runs and Option read plays into the offense for Cam. It should be fun to see them running those at the pro level this Saturday.

I for one, can't wait to see what Chud has cooked up in his back pocket for Newton and this season.

#100 mav1234

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 10:23 PM

For Newton or Clausen to run Chud's offense effectively they "WILL" have to take chances down the field at least 5 times a game if not more. .


how deep are you thinking when you refer to taking chances down the field?

#101 carpanfan96

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 10:56 PM

how deep are you thinking when you refer to taking chances down the field?



The offensive philosphy of the Gillman-Coryell offense is to pull the safety's either out towards the sidelines or deep covering the outside deep WR.

Generally what the offense wants to happen is for the safety's to move onto the deep WR's leaving the TE, Slot Receiver, ext open for routes over the middle of the field in single coverage / gaping holes in a zone based defense.


So to answer that question, it would depend on what the defense is running and how they are playing their safety's. Typically I'd say those 5-10 shots down the field would need to be 25+ yards on average.

Those passes don't necessarily have to be completions, just the shots need to be taken. The offense will be more effective if 2-5 can be completed, the rest is based off of running the ball and YAC from crossing, out, and slant routes.


While it's probably a given that the Panther's will run the ball more and rely on Play action passes. "Probably similar to what SD ran in River's rookie season play calling wise" the key is still to push the ball down the field on those passes.


So either way Carolina runs Chud's offense, the QB is going to need to be able to complete those Down the field passes. That and the fact that Chud is throwing in option plays and runs for Newton, makes me think that Newton is likely to be the starter come opening day. "That is unless he completely bombs in the pre-season games, maybe the first one won't be pretty. After that I think he settles down and becomes the starter for the season.

Way too many things being added to the offense for Newton + the offense style being suited more so for Newton then Clausen = makes me think that the decision has already been made on who's the starter for the season.

#102 Kevin Greene

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Posted 08 August 2011 - 11:17 PM

The offensive philosphy of the Gillman-Coryell offense is to pull the safety's either out towards the sidelines or deep covering the outside deep WR.

Generally what the offense wants to happen is for the safety's to move onto the deep WR's leaving the TE, Slot Receiver, ext open for routes over the middle of the field in single coverage / gaping holes in a zone based defense.


So to answer that question, it would depend on what the defense is running and how they are playing their safety's. Typically I'd say those 5-10 shots down the field would need to be 25+ yards on average.

Those passes don't necessarily have to be completions, just the shots need to be taken. The offense will be more effective if 2-5 can be completed, the rest is based off of running the ball and YAC from crossing, out, and slant routes.


While it's probably a given that the Panther's will run the ball more and rely on Play action passes. "Probably similar to what SD ran in River's rookie season play calling wise" the key is still to push the ball down the field on those passes.


So either way Carolina runs Chud's offense, the QB is going to need to be able to complete those Down the field passes. That and the fact that Chud is throwing in option plays and runs for Newton, makes me think that Newton is likely to be the starter come opening day. "That is unless he completely bombs in the pre-season games, maybe the first one won't be pretty. After that I think he settles down and becomes the starter for the season.

Way too many things being added to the offense for Newton + the offense style being suited more so for Newton then Clausen = makes me think that the decision has already been made on who's the starter for the season.


One of the reasons for the play calling River's frist year as a starter was All Pro play by Ladanian Tomlinson. #21 ran for 1800 plus yards in 2006 and had 500 receiving yards as well, incredible productivity.
LT's production declined steadily after that last great year and out of necessity the Bolts have had to pass more as they still search for a replacement (maybe Ryan Mathews steps up this year). Of course Schotty was also fired by GM Smith after 2006 and Norv took over.
One of the bright spots for the Panthers is the yardage DWill and JStew should be able to put up every Sunday in this offense when they are complimented by the passing game, especially if the safeties are stretching deeper.
Can't wait to see what they can do.

#103 mav1234

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 12:02 AM

So to answer that question, it would depend on what the defense is running and how they are playing their safety's. Typically I'd say those 5-10 shots down the field would need to be 25+ yards on average.


I honestly think that the "sweet spot" that needs to be hit might be less than 25 yards (but they also need to do it more than 5 times a game), because DA(2007) had only 2.6 attempts per game >20 yards and Rivers(2010) had 3.5(Clausen had 2 attempts per game >20 yards). You are right that the threat must be there though. No doubt, Rivers and DA seemed more of a threat to go deep now. And of course, Rivers and DA had more attempts as a percentage of their total past 20 yards (8% for DA >20 yards, 10% for Rivers, 7% for Clausen) than Jimmy, but Jimmy's completion percentage was still as good as Rivers and better than DA. So maybe he can run this offense? Then again, considering how completely he blew in 11-20 yards, I'm not so convinced he can run ANY offense if he hasn't improved in that area against live NFL defenses.

everything about the stats and the CLE/SD games I've seen have suggested that the key to chud's (and turner's) offense is in the 11-20 yard range. When those offenses were really clicking, it always seemed to be strings of intermediate passes to seemingly wide open guys for first down after first down, marching quickly down the field. It is that range where Clausen was worst last year... and by most reports, it's in that range that many of the playcalls Clausen is getting in camp are going. (and Cam for that matter) I think this comes back to a few things: 1) clausen didn't often have time to make throws of any significant distance because he was incapable of adjusting the blocking schemes at the line, 2) clausen really didn't have the timing on routes down, which is why we saw a lot of balls go to the wrong place (and it's very possible his WRs didn't either based on some of the comments that have been made), and 3) his confidences eroded after the first game or two for sure...

edit: An argument could be made for Rivers establishing his deep threat earlier in his career; but for Derek Anderson, I don't really think so. Honestly, Clausen was able to go "deep" often enough last year, but he wasn't able to go "intermediate" EVER... :(

Edited by mav1234, 09 August 2011 - 12:06 AM.


#104 carpanfan96

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 12:42 AM

It is the 11-20 yard throw that moves the chains and puts up points in the Tuner variant Croyell offense, but for those 11-20 yard throws to be successful the deep pass needs to be working or at least be a threat. Those plays can be effective as well if ran from play action after getting the run game going. I expect to see a mix of the team going deep and using PA to get the defense off balance and spread out.

I'm in no way saying that Clausen can't run the offense, because I think he can. He just doesn't have any confidence in his arm anymore, at ND he'd at least take the shot down field, It just didn't seem like he wanted to throw over 5 yards last season. :(

Hopefully that will change this season and I guess we will find out if he's willing to trust his arm a bit and make those kind of throws.

Edited by carpanfan96, 09 August 2011 - 12:51 AM.