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Rivera should hit the brakes on picking QB


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#181 footballisasport

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:14 AM

Yep, and he hasn't got there yet. When he does, I'll be ready for Cam to start.

Wow, really?


Judging by ur comparison list, it seems as if Cam has already gotten there minus a TD and a bit more accuracy. Things that can be worked on.:biggrin5:

#182 ncbobcat

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:25 AM

Not MY comparison, the views held by the vast number of Cam supporters. If you would like my breakdown of pros and cons of the two, Jimmy is ahead by a good bit.

Agreed everything can be worked on, but don't assume Cam is the only one intent on or that will improve.

#183 footballisasport

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 10:46 AM

Not MY comparison, the views held by the vast number of Cam supporters. If you would like my breakdown of pros and cons of the two, Jimmy is ahead by a good bit.

Agreed everything can be worked on, but don't assume Cam is the only one intent on or that will improve.


Honestly, there is a clear divide between Jimmy fans and Cam's. I'm not about to become like a dog chasing it's tail with this one.

But when it's all said and done, Cam is still the rookie of all a full three weeks of TC and Jimmy is suppose to be the 1 year vet with that much more experience in the NFL. Cam is the one with the least amount of preparation time and experience. Jimmy, if his problem was just bad coaching, should be light years ahead of Cam, who was labeled by the media to be nothing but a "one year wonder," "one read college QB" who isn't "intelligent enough" to grasp the playbook and wasn't qualified enough to be drafted high, nevermind #1 pick.

If they both are now starting off on the same playing field with new coaches and a playbook and all Jimmy has to show over Cam is a bit more accuracy, that's not good.

#184 rayzor

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 11:10 AM

I like it when med students just sit and watch. Who needs hands-on experience?

Hate to break this to you, but most medical schools are hands-on from the get go.

No one graduates from med school just by acing multiple choice tests and writing some papers.

agreed with this. most people learn more with hands on experience. musicians, mechanics, actors, athletes, salespeople....the list goes on. sure, there is some kind of education that needs to go on, but once you have a basic grasp of the fundamentals then you need to get in there and not just see it actively applied, but get your hands dirty. you learn faster and better. it turns theory into reality. sitting and watching doesn't make you better like living and learning on the fly does.

Furthermore, what I find funny is if you are not a hugger you must:

a) Hate Cam

B) Be a Jimmy fan

Objectively looking at this QB competition is NOT option 'C'. It's either A or B damnit.

the converse of this is true. if you think that cam is the better option and should go ahead and start then that doesn't make you a nuthugger. there is always a double standard in play here. labels are thrown around to easily if the person doesn't buy in to your point of view.

#185 House

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 11:14 AM

Honestly, there is a clear divide between Jimmy fans and Cam's. I'm not about to become like a dog chasing it's tail with this one.

But when it's all said and done, Cam is still the rookie of all a full three weeks of TC and Jimmy is suppose to be the 1 year vet with that much more experience in the NFL. Cam is the one with the least amount of preparation time and experience. Jimmy, if his problem was just bad coaching, should be light years ahead of Cam, who was labeled by the media to be nothing but a "one year wonder," "one read college QB" who isn't "intelligent enough" to grasp the playbook and wasn't qualified enough to be drafted high, nevermind #1 pick.

If they both are now starting off on the same playing field with new coaches and a playbook and all Jimmy has to show over Cam is a bit more accuracy, that's not good.


Jimmy missed out on a whole year of coaching, as you yourself say. Why should he be "light years" ahead of Cam?

Counting last year as a "year of NFL experience" is not exactly accurate. That was an experience in getting your ass whooped up on.

I like the progression of Cam and I am suprised that he has done as well as he has already. But what would be the reasoning of throwing him into the deep end to sink or swim. With the issues that this team has right now and the fact that the Panthers are not going to the SB, why do the same thing that fuged up Clausen to Cam?

If Cam starts, thats great and I hope that he succeeds but with the holes on this team you are playing with fire.

#186 mav1234

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 11:18 AM

Cam is also the #1 draft pick, the one who has been working with professionals "well versed" in our offense since the draft. He's the heir apparent, the guy who many fans here felt was the best QB coming out (and who obviously the team did too). He's the guy who had 90% of the playbook down before training camp according to his coaches, and had fixed the majority of his footwork issues according to his coaches and our fans. Cam, who won the Heisman in an offense he was in only for a year. Yet he can't beat out Jimmy, someone who started a handful of games last year and was so atrocious in them that we drafted Cam in the first place. Someone who had two touchdowns all year - one on a botched coverage (the TE pass was nice imo). Someone who, as the season went on, didn't seem able to look past 10 yards, who the fans say can't run this offense because he isn't built for it. Someone who can't even begin to compare to Cam athletically or physically. (NOTE: since I know people are going to get all crazy and pick this apart, I don't seriously think this poo, I'm illustrating a point here)

Look, I can throw in silly stuff that is only half the story too to try to make a point. Why you are surprised that these two are in competition is beyond me. If Jimmy came out and blew the poo out of Cam in every possible way, I'd be very disappointed we had drafted Cam. Two things are going on here: 1) Cam is improving quicker than some people thought, 2) Both of them are working hard to get down a completely new offense

Here's the reality:
Jimmy blew last year. What coaching he had was awful and while I'm sure he gained some things from the experience I think the majority of what he gained was from the tape from those games. He probably didn't learn anything at all, since our coaching staff wasn't exactly the best of teachers. He was basically coming in as a rookie again this year into a totally new offense, with some slight edge because he had loads of tape from nfl games on what he needed to work on in camp... and he set about doing that. Shula's gotten him standing taller, he's moving better in the pocket, he's going through his progressions (Not saying Cam isn't doing these things), these are all things that Jimmy struggled MIGHTILY with last year. He's still got plenty to work on. Perhaps too much to make it worth starting him over Cam right now, I don't know.

The idea that Cam just went from Auburn to our camp and was a blank slate is silly. He worked HARD at it, and I give him props for that.

the converse of this is true. if you think that cam is the better option and should go ahead and start then that doesn't make you a nuthugger. there is always a double standard in play here. labels are thrown around to easily if the person doesn't buy in to your point of view.


Not always. I understand the argument that Teeray made, and many others have made. I just disagree that Cam is as close to Jimmy as they do. I am impressed with how far along Cam is though. I just personally prefer to sit a young QB, but...

Edited by mav1234, 20 August 2011 - 11:21 AM.


#187 Kral

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 11:20 AM

I think Rivera needs to just get behind Cam as the starter now. First team reps for the rest of PS.

#188 rayzor

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 11:34 AM

i've said this all along. unless one of the QBs is far and away the better player at this point than newton, newton should go ahead and get the start. he gains nothing by sitting and waiting.

the past few years on teams that have actually bothered to work with their QBs (panthers last year are definitely not among that group) have shown that if you can protect the QB and take pressure on him by running the ball and calling safe plays for him and bringing him along slowly, you can start a rookie. there hasn't been any proof that letting the QB sit for a year makes him better. there is more than enough evidence given the right situation (which i believe we have) that newton's progress will not be held back by starting him early.

newton fits the offense better than clausen and even with lesser responsibilities they would still be able to implement more of their playbook and open up the offense more by playing him. they will be limited initially with either guy, but they will be limited more by starting clausen.

that said, it wouldn't bother me to have clausen start right away...at least for the first couple weeks. even waiting until week 7 wouldn't bother me because he would have the redskins and then the vikings, both games at home followed by a bye week. that's about as ideal a situation as you could find for a rookie QB that is going to be your franchise QB.

i just don't know that the team would benefit by having to start essentially all over in mid season having to get used to another QB. the oline has to get used to hearing him. the game plan will be quite a bit different. many things will change and that might do more harm than good.

also...one of reasons that it was alright to let your QB sit for a year or two was that you had him under contract for 6 or 7 years. that isn't the case anymore. we have cam under contract for 4 years. we need to get him prepared early and use him early.

#189 mav1234

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 11:59 AM

Newton's got some major footwork issues to resolve and I worry that throwing him in will just reinforce those 'bad habits.'

There is some proof that sitting a QB makes them better, since rookies who have looked poor in some preseason outings have, after learning on the bench, done quite well. You don't need a veteran QB to help the guy out... IMO, it's more about the offensive coaches. We have no idea how some of the QBs who were rookies lately would have looked in their debuts if they had sat a year either.

I don't personally think we need to worry about losing Newton so much we play him as much time as possible. If he's ready, and if he's better than Clausen, you play him, but I don't think he is ready and nor do I think he is better than Clausen.

Unless Clausen is tearing it up on the field, switching in Cam won't hurt the team much if at all. This is because these two are running the same offense, just different play selections from it. Cam's going to get reps in practice with the 1s whether Jimmy is starting or not. The question is, in part, (and I don't think we need to wait this long but I see why it would be a good situation) if Cam in week 7 having sat would be better than Cam in week 7 having played... I personally think he would. I understand why others disagree.

I also think that it's valuable to us to see how Jimmy handles actual games. This isn't to say it's enough of a reason to play him if Cam is ready and better, but I think it could help our long-term evaluation of our quarterback situation as far as backup is concerned to have a bit more on Jimmy.