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Ron Rivera vs John Fox


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#1 Mr. Scot

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 04:58 PM

(yeah; here's a thread with potential) :eek:

Co-worker of mine - who, for the record, is not entirely sold on Ron Rivera yet - recently said this (paraphrased):

"Ron Rivera may have given DeAngelo Williams a buncha money, but at least John Fox gave him the ball" :sosp:

In essence, Rivera paid him, but John Fox played him.

Understanding that, in reality, it was Marty Hurney who "paid" DeAngelo Williams and not Ron Rivera, it's not a bad starting point for discussion of how the two coaches compare.

Both Rivera and Fox are tasked with rebuilding teams that had awful records last year, bad enough to earn them the top two overall draft picks. Fox is on his second head coaching opportunity (where a lot of guys have a tendency to hit their stride). Rivera his first.

Organizationally, Fox is part of a team that has way more history and a higher level of success in the past, but the Panthers front office arguably has more stability right now since the Broncos underwent a bit of a shakeup this offseason whereas Marty Hurney's still running the Panthers like he has since 2002.

And of course, Fox has guided his new team to a win already (albeit over the Bengals). Rivera is, at this time, still looking for that first W, but it's only been two games.

I think it will be interesting to compare and contrast their respective seasons as head coaches, though I know the level of "compare and contrast" in this discussion on this board is more likely to be on the level of "Rivera rules, Fox sucks". So to hopefully postpone that, let me ask respondents to answer three questions:

1) Who do you hold most responsible for last year's debacle? John Fox, Marty Hurney or Jerry Richardson?

2) Does it matter to you whether the Broncos do better than the Panthers this season? If so, how much?

3) had the team gone ahead and made the coaching change last season, what kind of record do you think Rivera could have manager with last year's roster?

(keeping in mind that the pass heavy attack we're currently watching would have been implemented with Jimmy Clausen or Matt Moore pulling the trigger)

So...let the carnage begin :D

#2 smitty_89

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:00 PM

It is what it is...Can we just move on with Rivera?

#3 CatMan72

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:02 PM

Yeah, I'm not interested in discussing Fox - time to move on.

#4 jtnc

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:06 PM

Interesting enough, Smith said he'd choose the fruit Rivera is serving over Fox. Saying that Rivera wants them to be "great" instead of "okay" or "good".

#5 Mr. Scot

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:16 PM

Yeah, I'm not interested in discussing Fox - time to move on.

I'm interested in it as a discussion, though to date when the topic's come up it's been more shouting match than discussion.

#6 blackcatgrowl

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:19 PM

Since it was your friend saying this Mr.Scot, and not you, these responses aren't directed at you personally.

(yeah; here's a thread with potential) :eek:

Co-worker of mine - who, for the record, is not entirely sold on Ron Rivera yet - recently said this (paraphrased):

"Ron Rivera may have given DeAngelo Williams a buncha money, but at least John Fox gave him the ball" :sosp:

In essence, Rivera paid him, but John Fox played him.


Guess who else he gave the ball to?

:jc:
Herp Derp

Kinda makes that argument silly and worthy of a herp derp.

And of course, Fox has guided his new team to a win already (albeit over the Bengals). Rivera is, at this time, still looking for that first W, but it's only been two games.


He barely beat the Bengals. The Broncos are still a terrible team. And they are underdogs going to Nashville this weekend for a reason. We came within one TD of taking the champs to OT.

We also have the toughest schedule in the league two years in a row.

1) Who do you hold most responsible for last year's debacle? John Fox, Marty Hurney or Jerry Richardson?


Definitely Fox. But not by a huge margin. If I had to put percentages on it, it would be 40% Fox, 35% Hurney, and 25% Richardson.

2) Does it matter to you whether the Broncos do better than the Panthers this season? If so, how much?


Yes, but not only because of Fox. I've disliked the Broncos for 15 years, and I predict they have a terrible record this year, so I'd like to think we do better.

3) had the team gone ahead and made the coaching change last season, what kind of record do you think Rivera could have manager with last year's roster?


Well, this is a baited question. It presumes that Richardson wasn't low-balling ahead of this lockout. He has admitted that he was. So Fox wasn't going anywhere under those conditions.

If you are going to give the hypothetical that we switched coaches last year, you have to presume that the lockout never happened, and they got a new CBA signed ahead of Free Agency for the 2010 season.

Under those conditions, I think we would have been much more active in Free Agency, and not had nearly as bad a season as we had in the draft.

(keeping in mind that the pass heavy attack we're currently watching would have been implemented with Jimmy Clausen or Matt Moore pulling the trigger)


Not exactly true. We might have brough in a guy like Derek Anderson last year had Chud been our OC (Anderson only spent a year at KC), and I believe he would have started over Clausen or Moore.

So...let the carnage begin :D


This is kind of a silly "what if" thread.

#7 Zithers

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:22 PM

1) Fox

2) Nope. In fact, on another football board that I go to, we created the Denvolina Brothers alliance. :)

3) Probably still a top ten pick. So 6 or less wins.

#8 Mr. Scot

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:22 PM

Since it was your friend saying this Mr.Scot, and not you, these responses aren't directed at you personally.

Guess who else he gave the ball to?

:jc:
Herp Derp

Kinda makes that argument silly and worthy of a herp derp.

He barely beat the Bengals. The Broncos are still a terrible team. And they are underdogs going to Nashville this weekend for a reason. We came within one TD of taking the champs to OT.

We also have the toughest schedule in the league two years in a row.

Definitely Fox. But not by a huge margin. If I had to put percentages on it, it would be 40% Fox, 35% Hurney, and 25% Richardson.

Yes, but not only because of Fox. I've disliked the Broncos for 15 years, and I predict they have a terrible record this year, so I'd like to think we do better.

Well, this is a baited question. It presumes that Richardson wasn't low-balling ahead of this lockout. He has admitted that he was. So Fox wasn't going anywhere under those conditions.

If you are going to give the hypothetical that we switched coaches last year, you have to presume that the lockout never happened, and they got a new CBA signed ahead of Free Agency for the 2010 season.

Under those conditions, I think we would have been much more active in Free Agency, and not had nearly as bad a season as we had in the draft.

Not exactly true. We might have brough in a guy like Derek Anderson last year had Chud been our OC (Anderson only spent a year at KC), and I believe he would have started over Clausen or Moore.


This is kind of a silly "what if" thread.

I was bored :lol:

For the record, this particular co-worker is the same one who said a friend of his who worked at the airport talked to Plaxico Burress and had Burress hint that he was in town for contract talks with the Panthers.

Edited by Mr Scot, 20 September 2011 - 05:25 PM.


#9 Happy Panther

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:24 PM

I never thought Fox was a bad coach and i predicted he would find a job ASAP. I was right as usual.

He was given the worst QB in the league last year. Many of you claimed Clausen would be OK given good play calling. Now we know it wasn't the coaching.

If Rivera takes Fox's team and adds a record setting QB and can't win then I guess he sucks even worse. I'm liking the intensity though so lets see it happen.

Don't be surprised to see both coaches end up doing well in a year or 2.

#10 Happy Panther

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:26 PM

1) Who do you hold most responsible for last year's debacle? John Fox, Marty Hurney or Jerry Richardson?

2) Does it matter to you whether the Broncos do better than the Panthers this season? If so, how much?

3) had the team gone ahead and made the coaching change last season, what kind of record do you think Rivera could have manager with last year's roster?


1) Clausen
2) I'll be watching
3) 3-13

#11 Mr. Scot

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:31 PM

I never thought Fox was a bad coach and i predicted he would find a job ASAP. I was right as usual.

He was given the worst QB in the league last year. Many of you claimed Clausen would be OK given good play calling. Now we know it wasn't the coaching.

If Rivera takes Fox's team and adds a record setting QB and can't win then I guess he sucks even worse. I'm liking the intensity though so lets see it happen.

Don't be surprised to see both coaches end up doing well in a year or 2.

My epitaph on Fox is the same as it's been for a while.

Copied from the Raider-Broncos thread...

Fox was a great coach under 2003 rules, but as the league evolved, Fox didn't.

Refusal to adapt, whether it be mid-game or in overall approach, seriously blunted his effectiveness.

He made a good run in 2008, largely on the emergence of two great runningbacks and a well-constructed O-line. But when it came playoff time, again the refusal to adapt (specifically, sticking with the "left-right" corner thing, as well as other choices) bit him hard. The following two years? Ugh.

He may be successful again somewhere else (though early returns would make it seem unlikely) but he wasn't going to be successful again here.



#12 lightsout

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:34 PM

A band named Suicide Silence has a line in a song that says "a ruthless cleansing has already begun, and it's time to move on."


I think that holds true for this.

#13 KillerKat

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:35 PM

1) Fox
2) No
3) I think last year's team easily gets 3-4 more wins

#14 Mr. Scot

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:39 PM

1) Fox
2) No
3) I think last year's team easily gets 3-4 more wins

Even with Clausen starting?

#15 KillerKat

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:41 PM

yep there were 3-4 games last year that we lost directly 100% caused by poor coaching


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