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Troy Davis ....


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#76 cbarrier90

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 11:24 PM

For argument's sake, whether or not anyone believes in the death penalty is irrelevant to what happened tonight. Currently, the penalty of capital punishment is a legally available sentence in capital muder cases in some states with Georgia being one of them. Trying to debate the justness of capital punishment itself is, as relates to Troy Davis, a mute (not moot) point.

To the extent that capital punishment is a legal remedy that was pursued and given in Troy Davis' case, the question isn't "should we use the death penalty?" rather it becomes "should we use the death penalty in cases where doubt is present?" I realize that instantiation of "doubt" is rather vague, so let me clarify. By doubt, I'm not referring to cases where the accused has openly admitted guilt completely uncoerced or where there is clear and convincing, substantive evidence (see: Lawrence Brewer) as to the guilt of the accused. By doubt I mean cases including, but not limited to that of Troy Davis, where the bulk of evidence is a reliance on eye-witness testimony and lacking any or all substantial scientific, forensic merit. To be honest, it's a shame that eye-witness testimony is so higly regarded in the USCJ system, because any psychologist worth their bachelor's degree will tell you that eye-witness testimony is so unreliable as to be laughable. Ever play the telephone game in 5th grade? Yeah, now you see what I mean.


That's why it typically takes decades for inmates on death row to be executed. The court makes sure all the defendant's appeals can be exhausted and all the evidence does not leave any reasonable doubt whatsoever that said defendant committed the crime. Only then are they executed.

As I said, I find this particular case saddening because it appears that there were many reasons to doubt that Troy Davis deserved the death penalty.

#77 neverlosethefeeling

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 11:25 PM

I'm, for the life of me, struggling to figure out how so many people could have gotten it so wrong.

#78 ItsNotGonnaBeAlright

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 11:28 PM

For argument's sake, whether or not anyone believes in the death penalty is irrelevant to what happened tonight. Currently, the penalty of capital punishment is a legally available sentence in capital muder cases in some states with Georgia being one of them. Trying to debate the justness of capital punishment itself is, as relates to Troy Davis, a mute (not moot) point.

To the extent that capital punishment is a legal remedy that was pursued and given in Troy Davis' case, the question isn't "should we use the death penalty?" rather it becomes "should we use the death penalty in cases where doubt is present?" I realize that instantiation of "doubt" is rather vague, so let me clarify. By doubt, I'm not referring to cases where the accused has openly admitted guilt completely uncoerced or where there is clear and convincing, substantive evidence (see: Lawrence Brewer) as to the guilt of the accused. By doubt I mean cases including, but not limited to that of Troy Davis, where the bulk of evidence is a reliance on eye-witness testimony and lacking any or all substantial scientific, forensic merit. To be honest, it's a shame that eye-witness testimony is so higly regarded in the USCJ system, because any psychologist worth their bachelor's degree will tell you that eye-witness testimony is so unreliable as to be laughable. Ever play the telephone game in 5th grade? Yeah, now you see what I mean.

Bring in the recantations of 7 out of 9 witnesses that were initially central to the conviction and you have a considerably more severe sense of "doubt."

There have even been jurors to come out and say if they knew during the trail what they know now, Davis would never have been convicted in the first place.


Well, he was guilty at the time.

#79 neverlosethefeeling

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 11:30 PM

Big shock. Pro-bono lawyers will do that to you. Why does his first guilty verdict have any bearing on what I said?

#80 Toolbox

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 11:38 PM

How in the 9 hells can eyewitness testimony alone send you to death row?? far too much reasonable doubt with nothing else to present as evidence.

#81 ItsNotGonnaBeAlright

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 11:40 PM

Big shock. Pro-bono lawyers will do that to you. Why does his first guilty verdict have any bearing on what I said?


Its going to be really hard to explain that without expressing an opinion on the nature of capital punishment itself.

The burden of proof at the time of his trial found him to be guilty in the opinion of 12 of his peers. He was sentenced to death. After the fact, the proof became questionable. However, in the eyes of the courts, the case was never made that he was proven to instead be innocent. As such, the original sentence was carried out after the full appeals process ended.

The revelations and recantations after the fact may have been enough to cast a reasonable doubt on his guilt, but his guilt had already been established under law.

#82 Happy Panther

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 11:44 PM

Terrible system to decide life or death.

Hopefully some people are feeling ashamed tonight.

#83 neverlosethefeeling

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 11:50 PM

Its going to be really hard to explain that without expressing an opinion on the nature of capital punishment itself.

The burden of proof at the time of his trial found him to be guilty in the opinion of 12 of his peers. He was sentenced to death. After the fact, the proof became questionable. However, in the eyes of the courts, the case was never made that he was proven to instead be innocent. As such, the original sentence was carried out after the full appeals process ended.

The revelations and recantations after the fact may have been enough to cast a reasonable doubt on his guilt, but his guilt had already been established under law.




I think everything you said is correct and accurate. Judge Moore, who heard the appeal of the case, wrote in his opinion that the recantations only provided "minimal doubt." My argument, and the argument of many of Davis' supporters, is that any doubt whatsoever should be grounds on which to commute a death sentence. And that's even if the death sentence is exchanged for life w/o the possibility of parole and even if the guilty verdict is confirmed.

Edit: I don't really mean to say any doubt whatsoever, but any doubt that can be corroborated in a court of law. I'm not trying to say that if Davis' mother thinks he didn't do it, his death sentence should be commuted.

Edited by neverlosethefeeling, 21 September 2011 - 11:55 PM.


#84 Happy Panther

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 11:54 PM

What a pooty world we live in.

#85 ItsNotGonnaBeAlright

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 11:56 PM

Think of it as reverse reasonable doubt (and this is a moronic way to look at it, I know). Once guilt is established, then innocence must be proven beyond all reasonable doubt. Therefore, after conviction, if any hint remains of guilt then the sentence cannot be overturned.

#86 necroplasm

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 12:04 AM

I don't believe in an imaginary god, but sometimes...I dream of taking his work into my own hands.

That is all I can say right now.

#87 neverlosethefeeling

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 12:23 AM

Think of it as reverse reasonable doubt (and this is a moronic way to look at it, I know). Once guilt is established, then innocence must be proven beyond all reasonable doubt. Therefore, after conviction, if any hint remains of guilt then the sentence cannot be overturned.


Honestly don't think it's that moronic to think of it that way. The idea is that on appeal, to overturn a conviction, it has to be proven that any reasonable juror would not have convicted the accused. A sentence can be downgraded without having the conviction overturned, though (a legal manuever that's not common, but not unprecedented either).

#88 neverlosethefeeling

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 12:29 AM

And in case anyone is interested, here's a letter Troy wrote days before his execution entitled "To All":

I want to thank all of you for your efforts and dedication to Human Rights and Human Kindness, in the past year I have experienced such emotion, joy, sadness and never ending faith. It is because of all of you that I am alive today, as I look at my sister Martina I am marveled by the love she has for me and of course I worry about her and her health, but as she tells me she is the eldest and she will not back down from this fight to save my life and prove to the world that I am innocent of this terrible crime.

As I look at my mail from across the globe, from places I have never ever dreamed I would know about and people speaking languages and expressing cultures and religions I could only hope to one day see first hand. I am humbled by the emotion that fills my heart with overwhelming, overflowing Joy. I can’t even explain the insurgence of emotion I feel when I try to express the strength I draw from you all, it compounds my faith and it shows me yet again that this is not a case about the death penalty, this is not a case about Troy Davis, this is a case about Justice and the Human Spirit to see Justice prevail.

I cannot answer all of your letters but I do read them all, I cannot see you all but I can imagine your faces, I cannot hear you speak but your letters take me to the far reaches of the world, I cannot touch you physically but I feel your warmth everyday I exist.

So Thank you and remember I am in a place where execution can only destroy your physical form but because of my faith in God, my family and all of you I have been spiritually free for some time and no matter what happens in the days, weeks to come, this Movement to end the death penalty, to seek true justice, to expose a system that fails to protect the innocent must be accelerated. There are so many more Troy Davis’. This fight to end the death penalty is not won or lost through me but through our strength to move forward and save every innocent person in captivity around the globe. We need to dismantle this Unjust system city by city, state by state and country by country.

I can’t wait to Stand with you, no matter if that is in physical or spiritual form, I will one day be announcing,

“I AM TROY DAVIS, and I AM FREE!”

Never Stop Fighting for Justice and We will Win!


http://newsone.com/n...rom-troy-davis/

#89 cantrell

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 02:34 AM

Just for the purpose of comparison.....how many people were protesting the death of Super Whitey down in Texas today?


are you fuging kidding me

#90 Doc Holiday

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 09:13 AM

Should a supposedly advanced society still put people to death?

Yep, we need express lanes!!!


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