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Israel is basically a racist, xenophobic hell hole


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#46 SmootsDaddy89

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 02:07 PM

Okay so they all got tans when they went to Israel. Good for them. Doesn't change my point in the slightest.

#47 party_animal

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 02:24 PM

a reason for what? banning an ethnic group from joining government?

that's called apartheid you stupid poo.

if iran banned jews from their parliament holy christ someone like you would be up in arms.


you and i have had discussions before regarding this area of the world. you know that i'm far more qualified at discussing this topic with you. do you really want to go about talking to me this way? for someone self promoting himself as intelligent, you resort to petty insults and generalizations way too often. fiz, i've schooled you before and i have no reservations in doing it again. my real world experience outweighs you sitting behind a computer screen somewhere in the states, attempting to stir the pot on a message board.

instead of putting your western society blinders on and looking at this from a liberal perspective, understand there is a difference in culture and reasoning. also think of it from a military perspective.

think of it like this. israel is a nation constantly at war. they have a demographic in their population who may be more receptive to the demands of the enemies that surround them. in the interest of your country and your people, why would you want that to happen? in that situation you have no choice but to live in paranoia.

#48 Matt Foley

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 02:52 PM

you and i have had discussions before regarding this area of the world. you know that i'm far more qualified at discussing this topic with you. do you really want to go about talking to me this way? for someone self promoting himself as intelligent, you resort to petty insults and generalizations way too often. fiz, i've schooled you before and i have no reservations in doing it again. my real world experience outweighs you sitting behind a computer screen somewhere in the states, attempting to stir the pot on a message board.

instead of putting your western society blinders on and looking at this from a liberal perspective, understand there is a difference in culture and reasoning. also think of it from a military perspective.

think of it like this. israel is a nation constantly at war. they have a demographic in their population who may be more receptive to the demands of the enemies that surround them. in the interest of your country and your people, why would you want that to happen? in that situation you have no choice but to live in paranoia.



Damn, Fiz. Owned again. Sucks to be you.

#49 Fiz

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:31 PM

you and i have had discussions before regarding this area of the world. you know that i'm far more qualified at discussing this topic with you. do you really want to go about talking to me this way? for someone self promoting himself as intelligent, you resort to petty insults and generalizations way too often. fiz, i've schooled you before and i have no reservations in doing it again. my real world experience outweighs you sitting behind a computer screen somewhere in the states, attempting to stir the pot on a message board.

im going to start all of my posts by reminding people that i've owned them in the past that'll be something.

now if I just get a bunch of people that hate you they'll follow me around agreeing with me every time we discuss something!

also I've never insulted you personally because i know you have experience in that part of the world. however if you're going to justify racism and apartheid then whelp that will change

instead of putting your western society blinders on and looking at this from a liberal perspective, understand there is a difference in culture and reasoning. also think of it from a military perspective.

lol calling me a liberal is very funny.

also i'm not a jar head like you so I don't look at things strictly from a military perspective.

think of it like this. israel is a nation constantly at war. they have a demographic in their population who may be more receptive to the demands of the enemies that surround them. in the interest of your country and your people, why would you want that to happen? in that situation you have no choice but to live in paranoia.

that's certainly one military centric way of looking at things.

#50 SmootsDaddy89

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:37 PM

I don't think that restricting the ability of the Palestinians to participate in Israeli politics makes Israel safer though. I'm sure in their paranoid minds it does, but the more you oppress a people, the more violent they become.

#51 Fiz

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:39 PM

I'm sure in their paranoid minds it does, but the more you oppress a people, the more violent they become.


listen smootsdaddy when those filthy dirty arab finally leave the country then israel will stop oppressing them okay

i mean they're only being oppressed because they live there. it's their fault too.

#52 Fiz

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:42 PM

party_animal, since the united states is constantly at war, and there is a large segment of our population that shares the same religion as the kind of people we like to blow up, would you say it's completely acceptable for wide spread, hard grained hatred against them that manifests itself in every form of the society?

I'm just trying to iron out the consequences of such a belief.

#53 SmootsDaddy89

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 03:49 PM

Expanding on what Fiz is saying, the argument that Israel is justified in thinking that their country will remain relatively safe if they keep the Palestinians out of politics is basically the same argument that was made by the South for why the slaves couldn't be freed.


THEY GONNA KILL US

Except when they slaves WERE freed, they didn't.


Oh, but then black people had to be disenfranchised in every way possible, because if they got the ability to vote, well golly, they'd probably vote in black people who would pass bills making it legal to rape white women!


Oh that didn't happen either? poo.

#54 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 04:31 PM

Okay so they all got tans when they went to Israel. Good for them. Doesn't change my point in the slightest.



The divides in Israel have nothing to do with race. They have everything to do with religion. For the most part, the Palestinians and the Jews are the same race. Israeli law accords certain rights to jews regardless of their race. If you are a black jew from ethiopia, or a darkskinned jew from Yemen, or a asian jew from China, you have the same rights as any other jew.

And in that regard, they are no different than the other nations in that region. In truth, they are not as bad as some of the other nations in that area. Saudi Arabia for example is far worse, in that you can be jailed simply for practicing your religion.

Edited by Davidson Deac II, 27 March 2009 - 04:44 PM.


#55 SmootsDaddy89

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 05:31 PM

The divides in Israel have nothing to do with race. They have everything to do with religion. For the most part, the Palestinians and the Jews are the same race. Israeli law accords certain rights to jews regardless of their race. If you are a black jew from ethiopia, or a darkskinned jew from Yemen, or a asian jew from China, you have the same rights as any other jew.

And in that regard, they are no different than the other nations in that region. In truth, they are not as bad as some of the other nations in that area. Saudi Arabia for example is far worse, in that you can be jailed simply for practicing your religion.


So if I moved to Israel as a Christian, I would be treated the same way that the Israelis treat the Palestinians simply for being a non-Jew? Because if that's not the case, it means what you're saying (it's about religion) isn't true (and it isn't) The Jews were subjugating the Palestinians long before there were any suicide bombings on behalf of the Palestinians, so don't bother trying to bring up that point.


This is not Jews vs. Muslims or anything else you want to pretend it is. Israel is seen by the Muslim world as a colonial state backed by the West because they came in, took their land, and pushed the Palestinians out. When Israel became a state in 1946, Jews were one-third of the population. That sounds like most colonial states I know; a small minority ruling over the majority. The Palestinians do not care that the Israelis are Jewish. If a bunch of Turkish Muslims had done the same thing to Palestine, they would face the same problem the Israelis are facing. Hell, the Palestinians revolted against the Ottoman Turks in World War I and the Caliph was basically considered the Islamic version of the Pope. I'm pretty sure they don't give a poo what religion the people oppressing them practice.

Muslims don't hate the West for our freedom or any other bullshit we've been force-fed for the past eight years. They hate us because we continue to practice imperialism in its various forms (economic, political, whatever) and condone its practice by other countries (Israel). Israel is not seen as another crusade as much as it is seen as the last colony in the Middle East that needs to be done away with.


Israel was settled under a system that condoned discrimination of Arabs (or anyone who wasn't white) because Europeans were unabashedly racist during this time. And the settlers carried these same racist tendencies with them to Israel and established the framework of oppression that is happening to the Palestinians now. If every other colonial state operated with racism at the forefront of its political decisions, what makes you think Israel is somehow special or different? If you want to pretend this is some grand clash of civilizations or religion or whatever, and ignore that Israel has been operating under the systemized discrimination of the native people who had been living there for more than one thousand years, that's fine. But I will not join you in your delusional thinking.

#56 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 06:36 PM

So if I moved to Israel as a Christian, I would be treated the same way that the Israelis treat the Palestinians simply for being a non-Jew? Because if that's not the case, it means what you're saying (it's about religion) isn't true (and it isn't) The Jews were subjugating the Palestinians long before there were any suicide bombings on behalf of the Palestinians, so don't bother trying to bring up that point.


This is not Jews vs. Muslims or anything else you want to pretend it is. Israel is seen by the Muslim world as a colonial state backed by the West because they came in, took their land, and pushed the Palestinians out. When Israel became a state in 1946, Jews were one-third of the population. That sounds like most colonial states I know; a small minority ruling over the majority. The Palestinians do not care that the Israelis are Jewish. If a bunch of Turkish Muslims had done the same thing to Palestine, they would face the same problem the Israelis are facing. Hell, the Palestinians revolted against the Ottoman Turks in World War I and the Caliph was basically considered the Islamic version of the Pope. I'm pretty sure they don't give a poo what religion the people oppressing them practice.

Muslims don't hate the West for our freedom or any other bullpoo we've been force-fed for the past eight years. They hate us because we continue to practice imperialism in its various forms (economic, political, whatever) and condone its practice by other countries (Israel). Israel is not seen as another crusade as much as it is seen as the last colony in the Middle East that needs to be done away with.


Israel was settled under a system that condoned discrimination of Arabs (or anyone who wasn't white) because Europeans were unabashedly racist during this time. And the settlers carried these same racist tendencies with them to Israel and established the framework of oppression that is happening to the Palestinians now. If every other colonial state operated with racism at the forefront of its political decisions, what makes you think Israel is somehow special or different? If you want to pretend this is some grand clash of civilizations or religion or whatever, and ignore that Israel has been operating under the systemized discrimination of the native people who had been living there for more than one thousand years, that's fine. But I will not join you in your delusional thinking.




I said nothing about a clash of civilizations. It has nothing to do with that.
But if you think religion does not play a major role, well I don't know any middle eastern scholar who would agree with that notion. If palestinians suddenly converted to judaism, or Israelis to Islam, most of the problems in the region would subside.

As a Christian, you would not have the same rights as Jews. In fact, they probably would not let you immigrate permanently unless you had a good reason such as a job. You might not get treated as the palestinians do because you wouldn't be trying to blow up people (I hope). But you still wouldn't have the same rights as Jewish Israelis.

Muslims do not hate the west because of its freedoms if you are talking civil liberty. In fact, most do not hate westerners at all. But many do dislike some elements of western culture that we would call freedom, and they don't like its influence on their young. When I was in Bahrain, a riot started because british women were allowed to participate in a sporting event. Its a culture that no American can truly understand until he or she has lived among them for a while. Like any culture, it has its good points and bad ones, but its definitely different from what we are use to.

The first major attacks between arabs and jews in the British Mandate (maybe not suicide attacks, but violent attacks nonetheless) occurred in April of 1920 when mobs of Arabs attacked and beat many Jews, and killed a few. Most of the victims were of the Yishuv order that had been in Israel for thousands of years. These attacks started a breakdown in trust between Arabs, Jews, and the British and excerbated the problems that already existed, but had largely been non violent in nature. As a result, the Jews began to arm themselves, and prepare a militia style group, and the situation continued to spiral out of control.

I am not saying in any way that the Jews are blameless. They have made many mistakes. But viewing the Israeli Palestinian situation thru the prism of american experiences with racism is a mistake.

#57 Matt Foley

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 06:43 PM

I said nothing about a clash of civilizations. It has nothing to do with that.
But if you think religion does not play a major role, well I don't know any middle eastern scholar who would agree with that notion. If palestinians suddenly converted to judaism, or Israelis to Islam, most of the problems in the region would subside.

As a Christian, you would not have the same rights as Jews. In fact, they probably would not let you immigrate permanently unless you had a good reason such as a job. You might not get treated as the palestinians do because you wouldn't be trying to blow up people (I hope). But you still wouldn't have the same rights as Jewish Israelis.

Muslims do not hate the west because of its freedoms if you are talking civil liberty. In fact, most do not hate westerners at all. But many do dislike some elements of western culture that we would call freedom, and they don't like its influence on their young. When I was in Bahrain, a riot started because british women were allowed to participate in a sporting event. Its a culture that no American can truly understand until he or she has lived among them for a while. Like any culture, it has its good points and bad ones, but its definitely different from what we are use to.

The first major attacks between arabs and jews in the British Mandate (maybe not suicide attacks, but violent attacks nonetheless) occurred in April of 1920 when mobs of Arabs attacked and beat many Jews, and killed a few. Most of the victims were of the Yishuv order that had been in Israel for thousands of years. These attacks started a breakdown in trust between Arabs, Jews, and the British and excerbated the problems that already existed, but had largely been non violent in nature. As a result, the Jews began to arm themselves, and prepare a militia style group, and the situation continued to spiral out of control.

I am not saying in any way that the Jews are blameless. They have made many mistakes. But viewing the Israeli Palestinian situation thru the prism of american experiences with racism is a mistake.



Yeah, but Deac....they read a textbook. They know everything.

#58 SmootsDaddy89

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 08:03 PM

I said nothing about a clash of civilizations. It has nothing to do with that.
But if you think religion does not play a major role, well I don't know any middle eastern scholar who would agree with that notion. If palestinians suddenly converted to judaism, or Israelis to Islam, most of the problems in the region would subside.

As a Christian, you would not have the same rights as Jews. In fact, they probably would not let you immigrate permanently unless you had a good reason such as a job. You might not get treated as the palestinians do because you wouldn't be trying to blow up people (I hope). But you still wouldn't have the same rights as Jewish Israelis.

Muslims do not hate the west because of its freedoms if you are talking civil liberty. In fact, most do not hate westerners at all. But many do dislike some elements of western culture that we would call freedom, and they don't like its influence on their young. When I was in Bahrain, a riot started because british women were allowed to participate in a sporting event. Its a culture that no American can truly understand until he or she has lived among them for a while. Like any culture, it has its good points and bad ones, but its definitely different from what we are use to.

The first major attacks between arabs and jews in the British Mandate (maybe not suicide attacks, but violent attacks nonetheless) occurred in April of 1920 when mobs of Arabs attacked and beat many Jews, and killed a few. Most of the victims were of the Yishuv order that had been in Israel for thousands of years. These attacks started a breakdown in trust between Arabs, Jews, and the British and excerbated the problems that already existed, but had largely been non violent in nature. As a result, the Jews began to arm themselves, and prepare a militia style group, and the situation continued to spiral out of control.

I am not saying in any way that the Jews are blameless. They have made many mistakes. But viewing the Israeli Palestinian situation thru the prism of american experiences with racism is a mistake.

Religion does play a role, but it's more of a supporting role. It is not the main problem in that region and if one side converted to the religion of the other it would barely make a difference. Even if the Palestinians converted to Judaism whole-heartedly, I still believe discrimination against them at some level would continue to exist. We'll just have to agree to disagree there however.

You are correct on the traditionally accepted date for when terrorism began in Palestine against the Jews, but this is still a response to British-supported immigration of Jews and their colonial policy in Israel. This policy had already began to go into effect since 1917. Not to mention they were pissed off about being lied to. They were told that they would become part of an Arabian Empire, but this never materialized, and attempts to create this empire originating in Syria were crushed by the French. They weren't simply attacking the Jews because Palestinians are horrible people. As you yourself pointed out, the two groups got along relatively well for the better part of a thousand years before this. Islam traditionally was one of the most tolerant religions in the world. If you were a Christian or Jew in a Muslim country, you simply paid a special tax to practice your religion, because you were considered to be "peoples of the book." If you were a Muslim or a Jew in a Christian country, you were most likely going to be persecuted. The Palestinians didn't have major problems with the Jews living in Palestine until the Balfour Declaration set up the mandate for a Jewish homeland there.


They do hate aspects of Western culture, and almost certainly number one on their list is our materialism. They don't care if we are greedy and materialistic here in the US, but when our materialism begins corrupting their governments and their leaders, along with troops being stationed on THEIR soil, this is where the line is drawn. In Saudi Arabia, for example, we are seen as practicing economic imperialism because we influence their political decisions so much because we buy so much oil from them. Oh, and we have troops stationed there. That's the biggest reason Osama has been up our ass so much.


I'm not completely sure how you meant what you said about viewing the situation through the eyes of American experience with racism, but it is not just the American experience with racism, this is a common reoccurrence that has happened over and over and over again with European imperialism.

#59 SmootsDaddy89

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 08:04 PM

Yeah, but Deac....they read a textbook. They know everything.


Yeah fug books!

#60 pstall

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 09:01 PM

Religion does play a role, but it's more of a supporting role. It is not the main problem in that region and if one side converted to the religion of the other it would barely make a difference. Even if the Palestinians converted to Judaism whole-heartedly, I still believe discrimination against them at some level would continue to exist. We'll just have to agree to disagree there however.

You are correct on the traditionally accepted date for when terrorism began in Palestine against the Jews, but this is still a response to British-supported immigration of Jews and their colonial policy in Israel. This policy had already began to go into effect since 1917. Not to mention they were pissed off about being lied to. They were told that they would become part of an Arabian Empire, but this never materialized, and attempts to create this empire originating in Syria were crushed by the French. They weren't simply attacking the Jews because Palestinians are horrible people. As you yourself pointed out, the two groups got along relatively well for the better part of a thousand years before this. Islam traditionally was one of the most tolerant religions in the world. If you were a Christian or Jew in a Muslim country, you simply paid a special tax to practice your religion, because you were considered to be "peoples of the book." If you were a Muslim or a Jew in a Christian country, you were most likely going to be persecuted. The Palestinians didn't have major problems with the Jews living in Palestine until the Balfour Declaration set up the mandate for a Jewish homeland there.


They do hate aspects of Western culture, and almost certainly number one on their list is our materialism. They don't care if we are greedy and materialistic here in the US, but when our materialism begins corrupting their governments and their leaders, along with troops being stationed on THEIR soil, this is where the line is drawn. In Saudi Arabia, for example, we are seen as practicing economic imperialism because we influence their political decisions so much because we buy so much oil from them. Oh, and we have troops stationed there. That's the biggest reason Osama has been up our ass so much.

I'm not completely sure how you meant what you said about viewing the situation through the eyes of American experience with racism, but it is not just the American experience with racism, this is a common reoccurrence that has happened over and over and over again with European imperialism.


I agree to a point. This is also some lazy leaders of those countries because they are knee deep in living in 5 BC on many levels.
So the so called leaders there, rather than create something or invent something or export something or educate somebody or cure somebody etc, they redirect the anger that THEY should be getting from within their own countries to the US and Israel.
Two wrongs don't make a right. I know its a popular notion to hide behind Imperialism. That is an old college professor argument.
Now. Is it a slippery slope when the US gets involved and does in fact "westernize" that country? Yep. Totally.
So the educated response is strapping bombs on yourself? Run for office and change from the top down.

Here is the deal. These lame jurassic park leaders of some ME countries ride the fence. They want our help but don't want to be seen publicly.
They love their seat at the table more than their own people.
Traditions mean more than progress and innovation.
They also know that freedom is the ONLY thing that can take away their objectification of women, the poor etc and that if the masses get a taste of freedom, suddenly they are on the streets selling Buffalo Bills Super Bowl winning t-shirts(because Buffalo never won those shirts are super cheap is the point).
So if you say well I understand why someone would become a suicide bomber(being rhetorical, not say you do agree with this) then I don't want to hear any outrage on a cop killing unarmed person. Because I can understand the trigger finger due to all the stress and seeing the same crook go free time and again therefore this cop is justified in his distorted view and is given a mulligan. See how that works?


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