Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Let's talk about possibly evolving to a 3-4 in the future


  • Please log in to reply
47 replies to this topic

#16 Stroupe-a-loop

Stroupe-a-loop

    SeƱor Member

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,630 posts

Posted 22 October 2011 - 09:19 AM

wasn't the 3-4 developed specifically to stop the run?


Way back in the day. It's since become more of a pass defense with the way the personnel works now.

#17 mmmbeans

mmmbeans

    FBI SURVEILLANCE VAN

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,000 posts

Posted 22 October 2011 - 09:24 AM

Charles Johnson has played well at OLB in the 3-4. Also Applewhite turns into a beast playing OLB in the 3-4. Next year if we add the right couple of guys for it, and get our guys back healthy, I think we can be a scary good defense in that scheme. It excites me.

And I really don't understand why some people thing that guys can play well in one scheme but not in another. They are NFL players. The best athletes in the world. Charles Johnson has been quoted as saying he prefers the 3-4 because he gets to stand up. And that helps him see things better and get to the QB faster.

So I'm not understanding this "we don't have the right personnel" or "our guys are going to waste in the 3-4"

I think our defense will excel in it once we get a really good NT. That's the only thing missing.



who would play on the line?

#18 MaineManPanther

MaineManPanther

    Senior Member

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,462 posts

Posted 22 October 2011 - 09:24 AM

I don't see the point at all. Why risk production of some very talented players who we know are good in the 4-3.
All this team needs is a good Dt, and some luck with health to become a talented defense again.

#19 GritsRgreat

GritsRgreat

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,101 posts

Posted 22 October 2011 - 09:46 AM

I don't see the point at all. Why risk production of some very talented players who we know are good in the 4-3.
All this team needs is a good Dt, and some luck with health to become a talented defense again.


And a cornerback + a good outside linebacker that can stay healthy.

#20 DaCityKats

DaCityKats

    feed KB 2014

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,537 posts
  • LocationDa City

Posted 22 October 2011 - 09:58 AM

Rivera said one of the reasons we spent so much on Johnson is that he can play multiple positions. I'm guessing he evaluated him at a permanent position in the 3-4 if he plans to move to it eventually. Beason, Anderson, and Connor all seem like middle backers, so one of them probably leaves. Maybe Hardy can play the other OLB position. We would probably need an entirely new defensive line, so this is going to be a lengthy rebuild.


the guy was a gunner. i think he could play some OLB in a 3-4.

#21 panthers55

panthers55

    Starting all over again

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,626 posts
  • LocationAt the lake

Posted 22 October 2011 - 10:09 AM

There are advantages to either defense and frankly you can run an aggressive 4-3 which is just as effective as a 3-4. You will note that while some teams are going to a 3-4, teams like New England are going to more of a 4-3.

Why are they doing that??? It really goes back to the age old argument of whether you should fit your scheme to your personnel or find the personnel to the scheme you choose to run.
If you can find a 330 lb nose tackle who has the power and speed of Ngata and you can find two DEs who are in the 300 lb range who are athletic and quick, you are set for the traditional 2 gap 3-4. Can you get by with guys who are not ideal? Absolutely, there are guys in the 300 lb range who can handle the nose tackle role and guys in the 280 range who could handle the DE role in a 3-4.

Why doesn't everyone go to a 3-4?? It is harder to find draft picks who can fit the 3-4 than it is to find guys who fit the 4-3. Why?? Most college teams run the 4-3 and the tendency of late has been to find smaller quicker guys who can rush the passer and keep up with all the no huddle spread offenses which are cropping up everywhere. Plus most college D linemen are more used to a one gap attacking style of defense rather than a 2 gap read and react style. How many quintessential nose tackles can you find who could run a 3-4 in a particular draft?? 1 or 2 at most?? And how many of these guys actually show up in free agency given the best ones get snapped up in the first round and teams lucky enough to find a good one keep them.

Why do the Panthers run a 4-3 rather than a 3-4 right now?? We really don't have the personnel to run a 3-4 right now. Are we one or two guys away?? Actually not. And I would disagree with the OP that our secondary is adequate ( and it isn't the corners).

Who is the most important guy in Baltimore's and Pittsburgh's secondary that when they are out instantly changes the defense significantly. That would be the safeties- Ed Reed and Troy Polumalu. Reed is a free safety while Polumalu is a strong safety Both of those guys are arguably one of the most important players in their back seven. While they serve somewhat different roles, teams that play the 3-4 and play mostly a fire zone concept have to have great safety play. What position is aguably average at best on our team right now?? Safety play at both positions.

Do we have the linebackers to run a 3-4?? We do have some that would transition such as Beason and Gaithers and maybe Anderson at the ILB positions. But honestly do we have great candidates at the OLB position?? Most players we have been discussing are actually DEs like Johnson and undersized DEs or tweeners like Norwood. Could they do the job in time with opportunity to learn the position? Or could Johnson be an OLB like Harrison for the Steelers who rushes the passer most of the time. Absolutely. But we are likely 2 OLBs away because you need both starters and suitable backups in the event of injury.

Do we need a NT?? Hard to say until Edwards come back next year. But if we could find a NT in the first or second round next year who would be a dominant players for years, it would be a great pickup. Whether we stay 4-3 or go to a 3-4 we need a dominant NT. If Edwards is that guy, so much the better.

How about the corners. Actually I think the corners would be okay if the safety play were much better. Particularly if Hogan pans out as hoped. Plus pressure on the opposing QB makes decent corners better.

So do we have the personnel to run a 3-4. Actually we do. Do we have the personnel to run a great 3-4 right now??? No we don't. We need upgrades at several positions or guys to improve and expand their skills sets so they can do it more or do it better.

And before people start posting that we have the guys for the 3-4 by looking at weight and height of teams like Baltimore or Pittsburgh and saying we have guys with the same size and weights, get real. I can find a bunch of guys who are 6'3" and 330 lbs in the stands, but it doesn't mean they can start at NT for us. In other words every 4-3 linebacker who is 245 lbs can't play ILB or OLB in a 3-4 just because a well known 3-4 team has a guy who is in that range playing OLB.

Just my 2 cents...

Edited by panthers55, 22 October 2011 - 05:04 PM.


#22 Johnny Kilroy

Johnny Kilroy

    Kilroy Kicks Butt

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,648 posts

Posted 22 October 2011 - 10:56 AM

He did it last Sunday against the Falcons for a few plays.

I'd be willing to give CJ a shot at it because if Mario Williams isn't too big for it, then CJ isn't. It's just a matter of if CJ is as athletic as Williams (which he isn't, but could still be athletic enough for the spot).


I didn't notice him lining up as an OLB, I must have missed it. Are you sure you aren't mistaking dropping back in coverage with playing OLB?

As far as the comparison to Mario Williams, you said it yourself. CJ just does't look athletic enough to play that position.

#23 Soul Rebel

Soul Rebel

    Respect the Rivera

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 479 posts

Posted 22 October 2011 - 11:16 AM

My whole thing with this argument is pigeonholing ourselves into saying that we are a "4-3" defense or we are strictly a "34" defense. The NFL is evolving so much that as long as we have the personnel to be flexible, why not roll different looks. If you can start CJ as a down lineman knowing that he is a pass rush threat and stout against the run, yet drop him back post-snap (much like a stunt), then he is proven to be flexible. I believe Hardy, CJ and Applewhite would be amazing as pass-rushers in the 34, and yet, still top-flight as DE's in a 43. I think our LB's are flexible enough to play both inside and outside in the respective defensive looks. My biggest concern is the type of 3-4 that we would go to. I remember when the Jets transitioned and their strongest young LB'er Jon Vilma got lost in the mix. I'd hate to see that happen to Beason if he proves to be a 4-3 linebacker. I know Beast is one of the top-3 MLB's in the league, but Vilma was right there when the Jets switched over too. But like some posters have alluded to, there are several hybrids of the 3-4 that put emphasis on different positions. The defensive mindset and background that Rivera and McDermott come from gives me confidence that they would put the right players in place to succeed. I know they haven't looked good thus far, but it is only 6 games into a new scheme, 3 of our front 7 are hurt and our secondary has been banged up all year. I do believe whomever we slide into DT next year (Edwards, Fua, McClain, draft pick, FA, etc.) will dictate a lot. I just feel that in an ever-changing league, you have to be flexible, rather than locking yourself into one scheme. I'm a fan of defense's that move around and play like offenses.... come out of the huddle late, sub different personnel, move around pre-snap to confuse the offense. Don't let the offense dictate what you are going to do on defense, rather have confidence in your defense, and dictate to the offense what they are going to do.

#24 Catalyst

Catalyst

    Senior Member

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,107 posts
  • LocationMorehead City

Posted 22 October 2011 - 01:45 PM

If we were to try this, I'd rather C.J. play DE, personally. He seems a better fit there than at OLB to me.

#25 Johnny Kilroy

Johnny Kilroy

    Kilroy Kicks Butt

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,648 posts

Posted 22 October 2011 - 01:47 PM

Yeah might have to gain some weight but yeah.

#26 mmmbeans

mmmbeans

    FBI SURVEILLANCE VAN

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,000 posts

Posted 22 October 2011 - 01:52 PM

Posted Image

#27 Guest_Setfree1012_*

Guest_Setfree1012_*
  • Guests

Posted 22 October 2011 - 01:53 PM

I look at our team and I see talented 4-3 players, DE who can hold up vs the run and pressure the QB (Hardy, Johnson), I see stout athletic LB's (Beason, Anderson), and safeties who can cover, though I'd like to see more solid run support from them both.

I like the young DB's we have, but we need an heir to Gamble. Personally I'd like to see us continue to invest in the defense with our first 3-4 picks, outside of the availability of a stud at receiver. My thought is to stay with a base 4-3, but there's nothing wrong with showing 3-4 looks.

#28 mercules20

mercules20

    Senior Member

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 157 posts

Posted 22 October 2011 - 02:48 PM

eric norwood is built to play a 3-4 outside lb perfectly, he has the speed, all he needs to do is put on about 10 pounds.

#29 Cyberjag

Cyberjag

    Senior Member

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,625 posts

Posted 22 October 2011 - 03:24 PM

What does it matter which scheme we run if we can't execute?

#30 Seamonk

Seamonk

    kekekekekeke

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,058 posts
  • LocationRichmond, Va

Posted 22 October 2011 - 03:48 PM

I'm thinking they're using the 3-4 to illustrate the concepts they want to utilize in the 4-3. Also more adaptibility.. rivera prob wants to have a hybrid scheme


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Shop at Amazon Contact Us: info@carolinahuddle.com