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Should Tebow success get under Cam's skin


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#196 teeray

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:06 PM

You mean the year after he got us to a Super Bowl for being clutch?


You said the other day that Peyton Manning who has gone to multiple Super Bowls and actually won one with worse defenses than Jake had, wasn't clutch. So according to what you told me going to a Super Bowl isn't an automatic qualifier for being clutch. Unless your have changed you mind

Are you talking about the guy who got us to a Super Bowl his first year as a starter with the Panthers? The guy who lead the team called the Cardiac Cats to a double over time win in St. Louis en route to a Superbowl? The guy who set the record for the longest play from scrimmage playing against Tom Brady, a 85 yard touchdown pass in a Super Bowl...and it wasn't to Steve Smith, but to Muhammad? The guy who set the record for wiping off the largest 4th quarter deficit in a Super Bowl?

Yeah but did he finish?? :rolleyes: If he didn't fail on two different two point conversion in the 4th quarter we would have won the game. Those are clutch plays right??

Those are the type of records that actually mean something. Because they are being set in a damn Super Bowl. The guy who is either tied or has more comeback winning games than some of the greats like Tom Brady and Bret Farve? The guy who made the playoffs 3 times with the Panthers? The guy who played in two NFC Championship games with the Panthers? The guy with a winning playoff record?

Is that who you keep comparing Mr. 68.0 to? Why? You wanna make Newton look bad or what?


I don't know what 68.0 you are talking about. If you are talking about QB rating Cam is at @84. 3 points higher than Jake's career 81 rating. If you are adjusting for "garbage" time you should do the same for Jake and he has a lot of "garbage" TDs.

Why are you even mentioning Cam Newton and Jake Delhomme in the same sentence right now? When Cam Newton has a winning season, let alone do half the meaningful poo Delhomme did, then you can compare them. When he wins more comeback games than losing, then you can say he is actually clutch. Right now he started off by not being clutch and losing, and by being a bad game manager who doesn't have the basics down. Delhomme knew the basics and had them down pat for the most part. He didn't play outside his limits, and the coach didn't make him. Unlike what's going on here. Both the OC and Newton are playing outside their limits.

End of story. There's no comparison.

PS: And why do I post? This is a public Panthers forum isn't it?


So after reading all that I can only assume that your answer to my basic question is that a QB can go through periods where they may not close every game but still be a clutch player. That is interesting because that was my point. I small sample of games where the ball doesn't bounce your way doesn't mean you aren't clutch. A couple more yards on two drives and and a Mare FG and Cam may already have 3 come from behind wins. It just hasn't happened to work out yet. It will.

And for the record there was no bigger fan of Jake than me and I teared up watching the press conference when he was cut so I am by no means a Jake hater.

Edited by teeray, 19 November 2011 - 11:13 PM.


#197 teeray

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:11 PM

Here's your cherry picked stats:

He is. Defense has little to do with offense inefficiency. Offense does.

You are wrong. Period. Defense can NOT do anything about an inefficient offense.

Total scoring offense efficiency

W1(8-0)1 Green Bay 11.5
W2(8-1) San Francisco 12.0
W3(6-3) Chicago 12.4
W4(6-3) Detroit 12.9
W5(5-4) NY Jets 13.1
W6(6-3) Cincinnati 13.2
W7(6-3) Baltimore 13.6
W8 (7-3) New Orleans14.0
W9(5-4) Buffalo 14.1
W10(7-3) Houston 14.5
W11(6-3) New England 15.0
L12(4-5) Denver 15.2
W13(5-4) Atlanta 15.4
W14(5-4) Tennessee 15.4
W15(6-3) NY Giants 15.4
L16(3-6) Arizona 15.7
L17(5-4) Dallas 16.3
L18(2-7) Minnesota 16.4
L19(4-5) San Diego 16.5
W20(5-4) Oakland 16.7
L21(3-6) Philadelphia 17.1
W22(7-3) Pittsburgh 17.4
L23(2-7) Miami 18.3
L24(3-6) Seattle 18.7
L25(2-7) Carolina 18.9
L26(3-6) Jacksonville 19.1
L27(4-5) Tampa Bay 19.1
L28(4-5) Kansas City 19.6
L29(3-6) Cleveland 20.2
L30(3-6) Washington 20.5
L31(0-10) Indianapolis 21.0
L32(2-7) St Louis 24.7


That's all offense. They are primarily responsible for them being efficient. There is NOTHING a defense can do if the offense continues to play inefficient football. You will be a losing team. Cam Newton is the main reason we are inefficient. Only your QB can.

You see all those defenses you "believe" are good at the bottom? They can't do poo about their team winning games when their offense sucks and are inefficient. Nothing.

Learn that or remain ignorant.


Maybe not the bottom. But you want to hear an interesting fact about [U]every team in the top ten in YPP??

Every single team in the top 10 in YPP has a minimum of 3 non-offensive TDs.

Every single one has at least 3 defensive and/or special teams TDs

Here is a list of how many non-offensive TDs each team has:

GB-5
SF-3
CHI-7
DET-4
CIN-4
BAL-4
NYJ-4
NO-3
BUFF-3
HOU-3.

Funny how that works huh?? ;)

Edited by teeray, 20 November 2011 - 12:12 AM.


#198 TrueDat

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:15 PM

You said the other day that Peyton Manning who has gone to multiple Super Bowls and actually won one with worse defenses than Jake had, wasn't clutch. So according to what you told me going to a Super Bowl isn't an automatic qualifier for being clutch. Unless you have changed you mind


Yeah but did he finish?? :rolleyes: If he didn't fail on two different two point conversion in the 4th quarter we would have won the game. Those are clutch plays right??

I don't know what 68.0 you are talking about. If you are talking about QB rating Cam is at @84. 3 points higher than Jake's careerm 81 rating. If you are adjusting for "garbage" time you should do the same for Jake and he has a lot of "garbage" TDs.


And there's you being ignorant again. The game was tied and Kasay muffed a kick out of bounds which gave New England the ball at the 40 yard line and scored a FG before the time ran out. Had nothing to do with Delhomme. Had everything to do with a kicker who was NOT CLUTCH. And he did the same poo against St. Louis. Which is what eventually put Delhomme in a 3rd and 14 in our own end of the field to hit Smith for the winning score in double over time. Delhomme never got the ball again. Kasay was the last person to touch the ball and fuged it up.

You have no idea what you are talking about.


So after reading all that I can only assume that your answer to my basic question is that a QB can go through periods where they may not close every game but still be a clutch player. That is interesting because that was my point. I small sample of games where the ball doesn't bounce your way doesn't mean you aren't clutch. A couple yards and Cam already has 3 come from behind wins. It just hasn't happened to work out yet. It will.

And for the record there was no bigger fan of Jake than me and I teared up watching the press conference when he was cut so I am by no means a Jake hater.


And I think I also gave you a million examples of why it made Jake Delhomme clutch, not just in the Super Bowl, but in general.

And you continue to take things out of context and spin poo around. Like comparing Cam's 4th quarter rating to when I specifically referred to his rating and playing in comeback winning or game winning drives.

That's you ignoring the obvious. That's you being ignorant. That's you ignoring one of the most important parts of why we are losing.

That's you along with a bunch of others who continue to ignore and cherry pick arguments and use straw man arguments to argue against a fuging obvious point: Cam Newton is not clutch like Jake Delhomme. He hasn't made a name for himself yet of being a good closer(you know they actually have a specific position in Baseball for this particular part of the game).

You argue against the fuging obvious. All of you do. And it's what makes you laughable.

#199 BBQ&Beer

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:24 PM

I don't cherry pick poo. You guys cherry pick stats. You think yards are important and nothing else matters.

-Interceptions are more important than yards
-Incompletions in critical situations are more important than yards
-Failing to score in the red-zone is more important than yards(45% dude!)
-three 3 and outs in a row is more important than one touchdown. It hurts you more than one touchdown helps you. Did you know that? One touchdown doesn't make up for three, 3 and outs in a row. Look it up, it's true.
-the average offense scores 13 points off of 200 yards of offense. we score 10.6. And that's an average offense. Not a good one. But an average one.
-a 68.0 QB rating in tied or games down by a score in the 4th quarter is more important than all the yards in the world and everything that happened up to that point in the game. Your 4th quarter play when the game is on the line is more important than all your other plays in the game.
- A sack is more important than a pass completion because it usually counts as both an incompletion, a loss of down, and lost yards. A completion doesn't necessarily get you any of those things, other than a completed pass.


I'm not cherry picking stats. I'm ranking them by what's most important. And yards is at the bottom of that list.

No one is saying Cam Newton isn't doing good things too. It's just obvious to anyone that actually takes the time to look, that the mistakes he makes are more costly than all the good things combined. And when your QB hurts your team more than it helps, it doesn't matter how grand the help may appear or may actually be. The mistakes are grander. The help doesn't make up for the mistakes. You will lose every time.


No, you cherry pick.

You're insisting that every loss is Cam's fault due to his not blazing the 4th like the first 3 while ignoring the defense allowing long scoring drives in the first 3.

You insist the team is carrying Cam while implying that other QBs don't need their team's help, ignoring those teams superior defense & special teams play.

Etc...

Now this is when your type tends to as for quotes of where you posted such & I normally would oblige but you have sock after sock here so I'm not gonna bother since you would likely deny that the poster was you (& more importantly I'm only posting here between bars.)

I'm not sure if you're butthurt because the Panthers didn't pick your guy, or because people were mean to you, or what, but your tantrum passed pathetic around your 4th sock.

Yet you can't leave... Fascinating.

#200 TrueDat

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:25 PM

And to be honest. I really don't know why I keep bothering. It's pretty freaking obvious to anybody you guys don't like to face the actual truth and reality of what's going on. Or acknowledging facts. Or conceding good points. And you certainly have no idea what makes a winning football team or a good overall quarterback.

You will go to whatever lengths are necessary to not have to face up to the obvious: we lost our games primarily because of Cam Newton. You don't accept any fact that shows this. You try to change definitions of what it means to be an efficient offense or ignore that it's by far the most important measurement of winning. Or refuse to acknowledge more important stats that everybody else in the football world considers to be more important.

So in the end who the hell cares what you think and why should I bother to change your mind? Most of you also thought Jimmy Clausen was a good quarterback and was going to be the future of the franchise last year and called everyone stupid, retarded or dumb who didn't agree. We all know how that poo turned out. That's what makes you poor judges of the team and football players. You let your emotions and bias get in the way of solid objectivity.

#201 BBQ&Beer

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:28 PM

Here's your cherry picked stats:

He is. Defense has little to do with offense inefficiency. Offense does.

You are wrong. Period. Defense can NOT do anything about an inefficient offense.

Total scoring offense efficiency

W1(8-0)1 Green Bay 11.5
W2(8-1) San Francisco 12.0
W3(6-3) Chicago 12.4
W4(6-3) Detroit 12.9
W5(5-4) NY Jets 13.1
W6(6-3) Cincinnati 13.2
W7(6-3) Baltimore 13.6
W8 (7-3) New Orleans14.0
W9(5-4) Buffalo 14.1
W10(7-3) Houston 14.5
W11(6-3) New England 15.0
L12(4-5) Denver 15.2
W13(5-4) Atlanta 15.4
W14(5-4) Tennessee 15.4
W15(6-3) NY Giants 15.4
L16(3-6) Arizona 15.7
L17(5-4) Dallas 16.3
L18(2-7) Minnesota 16.4
L19(4-5) San Diego 16.5
W20(5-4) Oakland 16.7
L21(3-6) Philadelphia 17.1
W22(7-3) Pittsburgh 17.4
L23(2-7) Miami 18.3
L24(3-6) Seattle 18.7
L25(2-7) Carolina 18.9
L26(3-6) Jacksonville 19.1
L27(4-5) Tampa Bay 19.1
L28(4-5) Kansas City 19.6
L29(3-6) Cleveland 20.2
L30(3-6) Washington 20.5
L31(0-10) Indianapolis 21.0
L32(2-7) St Louis 24.7
[u]

That's all offense. They are primarily responsible for them being efficient. There is NOTHING a defense can do if the offense continues to play inefficient football. You will be a losing team. Cam Newton is the main reason we are inefficient. Only your QB can.

You see all those defenses you "believe" are good at the bottom? They can't do poo about their team winning games when their offense sucks and are inefficient. Nothing.

Learn that or remain ignorant.


So you are now insisting correlation=causation & you still think you're not cherry picking?
Heh.

#202 mav1234

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:33 PM

ypp != scoring offense efficiency. it's scoring efficiency. it is wildly misleading to group special teams and defensive TDs into "offense."

#203 TrueDat

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:36 PM

So you are now insisting correlation=causation & you still think you're not cherry picking?
Heh.




I already showed you causation. I showed enough proof of causation to convince even the Pope himself, Jesus was just another narcissist like Cam Newton.

I think the Pope would concede that point before you all would. So perhaps take a lesson from other fanatics and pray real hard that tomorrow Cam Newton isn't going to play like he did most of the season and we might win a game against an efficient offense.

#204 mav1234

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:37 PM

you're right, I mean I tune into ESPN or I look at any sports news page in the nation and all I see is "Cam Newton Overrated, Causes Yet Another Panther Loss." I'm so glad he's been handily tossed out of the RoTY discussion already, that he isn't on the Pro Bowl ballot and boy I sure hope we can draft that Andrew Luck kid to wipe away the stain of this loser!!! You have convinced everyone. You've won the world!

#205 usmcpanthers

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:37 PM

wow nvr saw this thread reaching 21 pages, and I should of put it in the dalton/luck forum anyway

#206 BBQ&Beer

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:38 PM

And to be honest. I really don't know why I keep bothering. It's pretty freaking obvious to anybody you guys don't like to face the actual truth and reality of what's going on. Or acknowledging facts. Or conceding good points. And you certainly have no idea what makes a winning football team or a good overall quarterback.

You will go to whatever lengths are necessary to not have to face up to the obvious: we lost our games primarily because of Cam Newton. You don't accept any fact that shows this. You try to change definitions of what it means to be an efficient offense or ignore that it's by far the most important measurement of winning. Or refuse to acknowledge more important stats that everybody else in the football world considers to be more important.

So in the end who the hell cares what you think and why should I bother to change your mind? Most of you also thought Jimmy Clausen was a good quarterback and was going to be the future of the franchise last year and called everyone stupid, retarded or dumb who didn't agree. We all know how that poo turned out. That's what makes you poor judges of the team and football players. You let your emotions and bias get in the way of solid objectivity.


You bother because you were deeply offended by something & can't let it go. Kinda sad really.

Wait...

You have more banned names than Eskimos have names for snow & WE let emotions & bias get in the way?!?!?

BWAAAAAAAHAHAHA!!!

Edited by BBQ&Beer, 19 November 2011 - 11:42 PM.


#207 mav1234

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:38 PM

wow nvr saw this thread reaching 21 pages, and I should of put it in the dalton/luck forum anyway


*grin* don't worry, I can get it there yet. ;)

#208 TrueDat

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:46 PM

you're right, I mean I tune into ESPN or I look at any sports news page in the nation and all I see is "Cam Newton Overrated, Causes Yet Another Panther Loss." I'm so glad he's been handily tossed out of the RoTY discussion already, that he isn't on the Pro Bowl ballot and boy I sure hope we can draft that Andrew Luck kid to wipe away the stain of this loser!!! You have convinced everyone. You've won the world!


That's because you get your football facts from ESPN. ENTERTAINMENT SPORTS PROGRAMMING NETWORK.

Cam Newton is certainly entertaining. Doesn't make them right. They're about as right when it comes to football players as a television political campaign when it comes to a politician.

So is the Pro-Bowl. Look up All-Pro if you wanna know who is worth a damn. Not Pro-Bowl. Not rookie of the year. Meaningless poo when it comes to what matters.

Popularity contests. That's all they are. Cam Newton is more popular than Andy Dalton. Andy Dalton is a better QB and is winning. And I promise you Bengals fans wouldn't trade AJ Green and Dalton for Cam Newton.

Andy Dalton's overachieving. Newton is not. So why should I give a damn what ESPN says if they say such stupid poo? Were you paying close attention to ESPN when they were saying how the Panthers had no chance to do anything in 2003? or 2005? or 2008?

#209 teeray

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:48 PM

And there's you being ignorant again. The game was tied and Kasay muffed a kick out of bounds which gave New England the ball at the 40 yard line and scored a FG before the time ran out. Had nothing to do with Delhomme. Had everything to do with a kicker who was NOT CLUTCH. And he did the same poo against St. Louis. Which is what eventually put Delhomme in a 3rd and 14 in our own end of the field to hit Smith for the winning score in double over time. Delhomme never got the ball again. Kasay was the last person to touch the ball and fuged it up.


Yeah Kasey muffed the kick. But if Jake converts either one of those two point conversions in the fourth quarter the game ending field goal would have only tied it. That is on Jake by your Cam logic isn't it??

#210 mav1234

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 11:49 PM

I don't actually get my facts from ESPN. I don't even watch them. The only reason I know they talk about us is because people on this site seem to link a new article about Cam every week from them.

But I do know that you are literally the only fan I have spoken to who thinks Cam is the reason the Panthers are losing games. Congratulations... you are a unique :)


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