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Charles Johnson, Jon Beason, and Chris Gamble...


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#16 Niner National

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:16 AM

James Anderson had a beast year. He signed a five year $22 million contract July of last year, he's fine. Competition will definitely be needed at the DL and all of the secondary.


Anderson blows in pass coverage. He's just fuging awful there. Anderson is good enough to be the the weak link in a great LB core, but he's not good enough to be "the guy" like he was this year.

#17 teeray

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:17 AM

So everyone here pretty much thinks that are defense will suddenly become even average if we plug in a couple of rookies and some second tier free agents??

I think some of these guys statistics have altered how good we think these some of these guys are. Our defense is terrible all the way around.

#18 Johnny Kilroy

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:19 AM

So everyone here pretty much thinks that are defense will suddenly become even average if we plug in a couple of rookies and some second tier free agents??

I think some of these guys statistics have altered how good we think these some of these guys are. Our defense is terrible all the way around.


I personally don't think it'll be that easy, never said that. But do not agree with your take on Anderson at all. He has been doing this for 3 years so it's no fluke or a result of the bad defense around him.

#19 MHS831

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:20 AM

If Thomas Davis restructures his deal by eliminating the $8.5 million roster bonus Einstien (Marty ) gave him, he should be safe too. I would put Anderson on your list but I agree that he is a statistical all-pro, but as a player, a liability at times. Sure he makes tackles--passes his man caught or 9 yards down field. He relies on speed more than instincts. He is not that good, people. Look at all the runs for big gainers on his side outside C gap.

Charles Godfrey is due a $5 million roster bonus because Hurney thought he was worth $7 million per year. I think we might need to clean house at Safety. Forget the competing for a job in 2012--what the hell were you doing in 2011?

Godfrey and Martin sucked. Teeray's point about CBs playing S is accurate. All of our safeties were CBs in college. Does Hurney know the difference? It is huge.

Hardy needs some discipline, but I think he will never be more than a situational pass rusher. Not very cerebral. I expect to see Keiser get more reps and Hardy get fewer. In fairness to Hardy, Charles Johnson was similar until his 3rd year.

Nowhere is the competition going to be more intense than at DT. If not, why not?

CB? So much will depend on getting people in the right place. I personally think Butler and Munnerlyn are nickels and dimes. Unless Hogan pees on a police officer with a beer in hand, he should come in and steal the job.

#20 MHS831

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:25 AM

Watch Anderson clips and focus on where and when he makes tackles. His reaction time is slow. He rarely anticipates correctly. Statistically, I read his numbers and say "no way."

Martin averaged about 4-5 tackles a game. unfortunately, they were because he arrived late with help or his man caught the pass.

Back to Anderson--Every player can't be a superstar, and Anderson will not be replaced unless we intentionally bring in someone to do it better. We have more pressing needs.

having said that, I really like the OLBs in the middle of the draft. 4-3 Lbs tend to fall because there are fewer 4-3 teams. Look for us to grab one or two in the fourth-sixth rounds that can do the job.

#21 teeray

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:29 AM

If Thomas Davis restructures his deal by eliminating the $8.5 million roster bonus Einstien (Marty ) gave him, he should be safe too. I would put Anderson on your list but I agree that he is a statistical all-pro, but as a player, a liability at times. Sure he makes tackles--passes his man caught or 9 yards down field. He relies on speed more than instincts. He is not that good, people. Look at all the runs for big gainers on his side outside C gap.

Charles Godfrey is due a $5 million roster bonus because Hurney thought he was worth $7 million per year. I think we might need to clean house at Safety. Forget the competing for a job in 2012--what the hell were you doing in 2011?

Godfrey and Martin sucked. Teeray's point about CBs playing S is accurate. All of our safeties were CBs in college. Does Hurney know the difference? It is huge.

Hardy needs some discipline, but I think he will never be more than a situational pass rusher. Not very cerebral. I expect to see Keiser get more reps and Hardy get fewer. In fairness to Hardy, Charles Johnson was similar until his 3rd year.

Nowhere is the competition going to be more intense than at DT. If not, why not?

CB? So much will depend on getting people in the right place. I personally think Butler and Munnerlyn are nickels and dimes. Unless Hogan pees on a police officer with a beer in hand, he should come in and steal the job.


I 99.9% is agree with this post. I only disagree that Davis should be safe ONLY because he has blown his knee out like two or three times now and essentially hasn't played football in two season.

If I thought that Davis was 100% healthy and not rusty I would absolutely agree with you about Davis. When he was healthy he was awesome.

#22 Snake

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:40 AM

DT,CB,and FS are what we need in that order. Two can be acquired via FA if Hurney is smart and JR wants this team to win.

#23 Varking

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:42 AM

By the numbers - Greg Hardy vs Charles Johnson through two season:

Charles Johnsons first two years as a contributor ( did very little as a rookie ):

50 tackles
37 solo tackles
10 sacks
3 FF
1 recovery
10 passes defensed
0 points scored

Hardy in two years as a fifth round pick:

80 tackles
62 solo
7 sacks
3 forced fumbles
0 recoveries
12 passes defensed ( 11 his second year )
1 kick blocked
1 Safety
2 points scored.

So why does Johnson get a pass where Hardy doesn't despite Hardy coming off looking much more versatile.

Thing is, I don't see a viable option in free agency or the draft that can come in right away and be more productive than Hardy in this defense. So let the kid play and continue to develop. If Hardy, who all around through two years is ahead of the curve that Johnson was, continues his trend, he will be looking real good next season.

New England and Philly were the only teams in the NFL last season who had two players with over 10 sacks each. Along with the Giants ( who have the best pass rushing line in all of football ) they were the only three teams who had over 9 on two players that were DEs in the entire NFL. Pitt had 3 linebackers go over 9 and Denver had 2 linebackers. The next best for a pair of DEs were the Colts, who have what is considered two elite DE rushers, and both were around 8. I think you guys might have your expectations set too highly for how much production a team should get out of their ends.

Hardy and Johnson are awesome pieces as a whole, it is the interior that needs improving. Get one above average rusher on the interior and you will see Hardy sit around 7-8 sacks and Johnson go back over 10.

#24 ThPantherFan

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:51 AM

These are some good reads. Most of you are junior members (past 2 years) and it brings hope back to this forum. I agree on the point about corners. Just not satisfied there. Can't say I disagree with the DT situation, but it looks not too bad. I'll have to trust the front office on this. I believe corners will be addressed early in the draft. Of course all we are doing is speculating and that passes the time until March.

#25 (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:53 AM

Agree with the intent, not the method.

#26 Marguide

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 11:06 AM

I believe we should target 4 new starters on the defensive side:
  • CB #2
  • FS
  • OLB
  • DT (Nose)

Up to 3 of those may be on the roster already (Hogan, Edwards, Davis) but I don't see any of those as a sure thing, so it would be wise to add through the draft/FA.

You can't totally overhaul the defensive roster in one year. We are going to have to plan on guys like Anderson and Godfrey performing better as the cast around them improves. The same is probably true with Hardy/Keiser/Applewhite.

Fix the 4 holes listed above, and this D will look much, much different next year.

#27 panthers55

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 11:29 AM

I can understand saying that there should be competition for the starting roles next year across the board. But to suggest that these are the only three guys who should be assured a roster spot on the defense is ridiculous. The reality is that contracts, cap hits and other issues have to be considered as primary concerns. Plus just because they played great in 2011 doesn't guarantee they will be great in 2012.

But to my earlier point, we have a number of guys who are going to be on the roster for a number of reasons.
For example, Hardy isn't going anywhere just like a number of guys who are on their rookie contracts. They are cheap and productive. Most teams need a number of guys who are role players and cheap. You can't have a total team of stars and high paid guys. Players like Fua and McClain will be here as well. Will they start? That remains to be seen but they will surely be on the roster no matter what.

We also have guys who just received a long-term contract who would cost too much to let go at this point. Anderson and Edwards comes to mind. Obviously Davis is a different entity.

But any discussion about who should or should not be here has to take into account contracts, financial realities, value versus cost and other factors like that. Otherwise this discussion is not much different than a Madden game discussion.

Edited by panthers55, 08 January 2012 - 11:39 AM.


#28 Udogg

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 11:36 AM

The big picture IMO is that is these guys are so good how come we are terrible on defense?? Great you have 145 tackles. Yet every team runs the ball effectively to your side because the DT can't get penetration and the DE is a non-factor in the run game and you also miss a ton of tackles and your safety help is a worse tackler than Deion Sanders.

It isn't surprising that he has 145 tackles.


NO LB IN THE LEAGUE CAN PLAY WELL IF THE PEOPLE UP FRONT SUCK. Everyone is acting like Jon Beason made every play. I remember plenty of times last year when Beason was healthy he was getting torched and missed some tackles also. Go back and look at the games and box scores.

Hardy is a valid point. However as someone said statistically his development is close to CJ so I would play it out a year. Competition isn't a bad thing.

Sherrod Martin consistently takes bad angles. Consistently misses asssignments, Consistently mistimes passes.

Charles Godfrey keeps getting poo. I really don't understand it anymore. It's like he can make 15 good plays in a row and 1 bad play he is the worst safety in the league. I'm tired of defending him tbh so I'll just disagree.

#29 teeray

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 11:40 AM

I can understand saying that there should be competition for the starting roles next year across the board. But to suggest that these are the only three guys who should be assured a roster spot on the defense is ridiculous. The reality is that contracts, cap hits and other issues have to be considered as primary concerns. Plus just because they played great in 2011 doesn't guarantee they will be great in 2012.

But to my earlier point, we have a number of guys who are going to be on the roster for a number of reasons.
For example, Hardy isn't going anywhere just like a number of guys who are on their rookie contracts. They are cheap and productive. Most teams need a number of guys who are role players and cheap. You can have a total team of stars and high paid guys. Players like Fua and McClain will be here as well. Will they start? That remains to be seen but they will surely be on the roster no matter what.

We also have guys who just received a long-term contract who would cost too much to let go at this point. Anderson and Edwards comes to mind. Obviously Davis is a different entity.

But any discussion about who should or should not be here has to take into account contracts, financial realities, value versus cost and other factors like that. Otherwise this discussion is not much different than a Madden game discussion.


Maybe I wasn't as clear as I wanted to be in the original post. I wasn't suggesting that they are the only ones who should be guaranteed a roster spot, I meant their starting jobs should be the only ones that are safe and that the rest need to be challenged and possibly replaced for their starting jobs.

I didn't make that as clear as I wanted in the original post. By "job" I meant starting job.

#30 panthers55

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 11:49 AM

Maybe I wasn't as clear as I wanted to be in the original post. I wasn't suggesting that they are the only ones who should be guaranteed a roster spot, I meant their starting jobs should be the only ones that are safe and that the rest need to be challenged and possibly replaced for their starting jobs.

I didn't make that as clear as I wanted in the original post. By "job" I meant starting job.


Why would they be safe either from a starting point of view. Who knows how they will play in 2012. Seems to me that every starting job should be up for grabs. if they are hands down the best player at that position, then they will rise to the top and win the position. The way to ensure everyone plays at a high level is to make it clear that the guys who play best in training camp and the preseason start and there are no guarantees. This league is about what have you done yesterday, not what you did last year.

Edited by panthers55, 08 January 2012 - 11:55 AM.



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