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Obama admin having to admit waterboarding worked?


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#31 Matt Foley

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 09:44 AM

Zod would show them his latest pictures.



I keed, I keed...:D

#32 PanthaSan

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 10:29 AM

waterboarding works when the person is convinced you will kill them with it.

to convince someone of that, you have to kill someone with it.


That's where the women and children come in.
Just kidding.

I have seen worse techniques when I was in the Army and I beleive that the end does justify the means. Especially when we are protecting Americans or the beliefs of this fine country. And that includes the Whiny Libs/Tree Huggers/Religious Fanatics/Lesbians and Hippies that try and undermine anything they disagree with.

Freedom is great but some folks don't realize the price that has to be paid by some so that others can enjoy it (freedom).

#33 cookinwithgas

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 11:19 AM

Freedom isn't free....it costs about a buck ninety three....

#34 Matt Foley

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 11:21 AM

Freedom isn't free....it costs about a buck ninety three....


It used to. Now it's 3.86, and the interest will kill ya.

#35 cookinwithgas

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 11:24 AM

That's where the women and children come in.
Just kidding.

I have seen worse techniques when I was in the Army and I beleive that the end does justify the means. Especially when we are protecting Americans or the beliefs of this fine country.


We protect our beliefs by ignoring them, thats great.

#36 Matt Foley

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 12:44 PM

I like when you guys say "this is what we've become...great". Torture has been around since the first marriage.

#37 cookinwithgas

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 12:48 PM

We don't charge people we fight for war crimes for getting married, while we do it ourselves.

And good one.

#38 2jakefansinva

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 01:30 PM

What about to save hundreds?

What about to save dozens?

What about to save one?

Yes?


I don't have a problem taking a terrorist life if it would save American lives. So, I guess the torture thing is a moot point.

#39 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 05:37 PM

We protect our beliefs by ignoring them, thats great.


When you say our beliefs, you are grouping us. While I do respect you, I don't necessarily share your beliefs, so our beliefs are not the same.

In the declaration of independence, the very first right mentioned is the right to life. So when your intent is to take innocent life, then you give up certain rights, one of which is the absolute right to liberty and the right to not be tortured. Like I said, the cases were torture is useful are very rare, but it seems that this one of the few cases in which it was useful.

FWIW, I hope we never have to use it again, but I don't want to totally eliminate the ability in all cases.

#40 Matt Foley

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:27 PM

So what if a terrorist had your weed stashed away in a basement somewhere, next to a bomb that was about to go off? My question to the libs is....would you tear off his fingernails or poke him with a red hot soldering iron first?

#41 mmmbeans

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:44 PM

When you say our beliefs, you are grouping us. While I do respect you, I don't necessarily share your beliefs, so our beliefs are not the same.

In the declaration of independence, the very first right mentioned is the right to life. So when your intent is to take innocent life, then you give up certain rights, one of which is the absolute right to liberty and the right to not be tortured. Like I said, the cases were torture is useful are very rare, but it seems that this one of the few cases in which it was useful.

FWIW, I hope we never have to use it again, but I don't want to totally eliminate the ability in all cases.


Yes, but as Americans our beliefs aren't what join us, it's our ideals.

It's not that we agree with each other on how things should be done, but we all agree that we can do it better than everyone else, without cutting corners, without lowering ourselves to the level of everyone else. American ingenuity, hard work etc. etc. Torture is lazy. I'd rather see us go down in flames than watch us very slowly become self-excusing blowhards.

If we are to preserve the freedoms for which people sacrificed so dearly, we as the populace must continue to be open to sacrifice, not hide away from the harsh realities of the world hoping we can scare away the boogieman. Terrorism is built to break the will of the people, we are the targets.

So what if torture works once or twice? At some point it won't, lots of people will die, then where are we? right where we didn't want to be, minus our identity, minus our morals, having sacrificed everything we hold dear in a last ditch effort to delay the inevitable. lost are the things that would unite us, the things which would join us all together in the midst of tragedy and remind us why we are different, why we are strong, people will break without these things.

Revenge isn't enough to sustain a country, survival isn't enough to sustain a country, government isn't enough to sustain a country, it's our ideals which will carry us through this and allow us to survive. Without those, we're finished.

#42 mmmbeans

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:46 PM

So what if a terrorist had your weed stashed away in a basement somewhere, next to a bomb that was about to go off? My question to the libs is....would you tear off his fingernails or poke him with a red hot soldering iron first?


bong-water-boarding.

#43 cookinwithgas

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 07:08 PM

When you say our beliefs, you are grouping us. While I do respect you, I don't necessarily share your beliefs, so our beliefs are not the same.

In the declaration of independence, the very first right mentioned is the right to life. So when your intent is to take innocent life, then you give up certain rights, one of which is the absolute right to liberty and the right to not be tortured. Like I said, the cases were torture is useful are very rare, but it seems that this one of the few cases in which it was useful.

FWIW, I hope we never have to use it again, but I don't want to totally eliminate the ability in all cases.


I agree. As soon as the defendant is convicted by a jury of his peers, or convicted by a military court as a spy...you get the picture. "Intent" in and of itself is not a crime. Even then, the guilty are still afforded some rights, for the simple reason that if they didn't have any, the government could do whatever it wanted to do to them, whenever it wanted, like the case here. The constitution does not say anything about torture, but I doubt that after living through the French and Indian Wars (or at least the recent memories of it), the Founding Fathers would be too keen on brutalizing an enemy.

I really do understand why this was done and how it came about. But it was the wrong decision - done in haste, with little regard for the consequences, and overlooked by our population and our government mostly out of a sense of revenge. Not the type of activity the most (by far) powerful nation in the world should condone, if it actually wants to be seen as better than our enemies.

#44 cptx

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 07:31 PM

bong-water-boarding.


I think that EVERYONE would agree that would be horrible.

#45 Matt Foley

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 07:38 PM

I agree. As soon as the defendant is convicted by a jury of his peers, or convicted by a military court as a spy...you get the picture. "Intent" in and of itself is not a crime. Even then, the guilty are still afforded some rights, for the simple reason that if they didn't have any, the government could do whatever it wanted to do to them, whenever it wanted, like the case here. The constitution does not say anything about torture, but I doubt that after living through the French and Indian Wars (or at least the recent memories of it), the Founding Fathers would be too keen on brutalizing an enemy.

I really do understand why this was done and how it came about. But it was the wrong decision - done in haste, with little regard for the consequences, and overlooked by our population and our government mostly out of a sense of revenge. Not the type of activity the most (by far) powerful nation in the world should condone, if it actually wants to be seen as better than our enemies.


Revenge? Maybe to some extent. But you have to remember the nature of the 9/11 attacks. These people lived among us....wolves among the flock. If you get someone with knowledge, and they just listed two specific attacks on O'Reilly that were thwarted by waterboarding one man...then you have to do it. It's unbelievable incompetence not to.

By the way, did you know that waterboarding...that evil, atrocious form of torture....was used until recently as hazing at VMI? Doesn't make it right, but it does put it into perspective. We aren't maiming people. We aren't putting their lives in danger. We're doing something that DOES work if that person knows something.

If Obama doesn't step up to the plate and pardon everyone involved here, and we get hit again....it's over for him. Kaput.


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