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Kid is shot, killed by neighborhood association captain


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#496 g5jamz

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 02:45 PM

Let's talk this out. Let's say a person walk into a grocery store in their neighborhood.That person "thinks" he/she sees shoplifting occur and points it out to an employee. Employee tells the person to ignore it, but he/she calls the police and follows the accused. The accused hasn't shoplifted anything, but thinks he/she saw something. That person confronts the accused prior to police response asking/inquiring on what he/she thinks happened. The accused take offense and acts out violently hitting the accusor. Is that person not allowed to defend his/herself from attack? The level of response to the attack isn't in question here...everyone knows what happened, but would the accusor be criminally liable.

Thing is...I readily admit I don't have enough details about any of this. But I do know that what I know now is probably going to lead to an acquittal in criminal court simply based on lack of evidence that the act was malicious and with intent and not simply an act of self defense.

#497 MadHatter

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 02:51 PM

Your neocon preemptive-strike/pre-crime logic is the problem here. I dont see how anyone can justify the murder of an individual who has not yet actually committed any crime. This thought-process lacks any sort of logic or humanity whatsoever. The use of deadly force in this trivial situation by Zimmerman was not warranted in the slightest, and should rightfully land him many many years behind bars.


What trivial situation.

There is an eye witness account that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and bashing his head into the sidewalk..

I will tell you this....if some guy was bashing my head in and I had a gun, I would shoot them too.

You can say that Zimmerman should not have followed Martin. Yet, it is not a crime for him to do so.

You have no idea what happened once Zimmerman and Martin came face to face. Was Zimmerman the agressor? Was Martin the agressor? You have ZERO clue...and neither do I.

It suits your own biases to believe that this guy hunted down and innocent black kid and killed him in cold blood.....even if the eye witness testimory and evidence does not support that story.

#498 Wanderlai

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 02:51 PM

Security, whether in a mall, gated community, hospital, etc, does have the authority to follow a suspicious person. Now he should have backed off once the dispatcher told him to...that's no crime either though. I'm not sure if anyone will ever know, other than Zimmerman, who started a confrontation and who the aggressor was. The kid didn't deserve to die but I don't think he knew he was just a kid. If the kid started the fight and was getting the upper hand on him, then I get why he shot him. If Zimmerman started the fight, if there was one, then he had no right to use a gun. A whole lot of "ifs" with no good outcome for anyone involved.

#499 tarheelpride

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 02:57 PM

Question to everyone: this has been brought out a little bit, but I want to center some discussion on it.

Did Martin not had the right to defend himself too? What is the line with self-defense and was his apparent attack (emphasis on apparent) necessitated lethal force?

I keep seeing that word thrown around with Zimmerman, but not contributed that much to Martin, who had every right to defend himself as he saw fit as well.

#500 Proudiddy

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 02:57 PM

Problem is for all these folks that love quoting the 2nd amendment, where is the line and when is it crossed for all our gun toting Amuuurrricuns?

If I'm not mistaken, someone earlier in this thread stated that somewhere within the "stand your ground" law it says you cannot provoke violence in order to use deadly force. This is exactly what Zimmerman did.

If that isn't built into these kind of laws, this case should set the precedent for it, b/c otherwise anyone with a gun can quickly get rid of any nuisances without any consequences.

#501 cookinwithgas

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 03:01 PM

Zimmerman was self appointed security, wasn't he? Like a bored guy driving around the neighborhood with a gun looking for trouble so he could be a hero, right?

Kind of like a rent a cop you see at the mall but if he just showed up with an actual gun and followed people without getting hired or paid?

#502 Wanderlai

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 03:04 PM

Question to everyone: this has been brought out a little bit, but I want to center some discussion on it.

Did Martin not had the right to defend himself too? What is the line with self-defense and was his apparent attack (emphasis on apparent) necessitated lethal force?

I keep seeing that word thrown around with Zimmerman, but not contributed that much to Martin, who had every right to defend himself as he saw fit as well.


Yes he did so long as Zimmerman started a physical confrontation.

Are regular security guards allowed to carry guns? I've worked in a few hospitals and security isn't allowed to carry guns but that may be company policy. Kind of like when the pharmacist was robbed but he had his personal gun on him and shot the robber and he was fired from his job because it was against company policy to have a firearm.

#503 g5jamz

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 03:05 PM

No one knows what/how Zimmerman approached Martin.

Zimmerman may have just asked him a few questions...and even if he did sound accusatory there's no law against that. You have to show that Zimmerman 1) pulled his weapon 2) touched Martin or 3) levied a threat against Martin.

Same goes for Martin...it would have to show he 1) pretended he had a weapon 2) touched Zimmerman or 3) levied a threat against Zimmerman.

No one knows when Zimmerman pulled his weapon. Buddy of mine has a CCW permit and has one in an ankle holster all the time and you'd never know it. Did Zimmerman pull it at the beginning? Don't know. Did Zimmerman pull it out as the fight broke out? Don't know. Did Zimmerman have to pull it out in fear for his life? Don't know.

#504 Wanderlai

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 03:07 PM

Zimmerman was self appointed security, wasn't he? Like a bored guy driving around the neighborhood with a gun looking for trouble so he could be a hero, right?

Kind of like a rent a cop you see at the mall but if he just showed up with an actual gun and followed people without getting hired or paid?


Wait he wasn't actually hired to be "security" for the community?

#505 g5jamz

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 03:07 PM

Zimmerman was self appointed security, wasn't he? Like a bored guy driving around the neighborhood with a gun looking for trouble so he could be a hero, right?

Kind of like a rent a cop you see at the mall but if he just showed up with an actual gun and followed people without getting hired or paid?


This sort of ignorant generalizations got an innocent man accused of bombing the Atlanta Olympics...just because he looked like Paul Blart and lived with his mom and psychologists were all about profiling.

#506 Proudiddy

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 03:13 PM

No one knows what/how Zimmerman approached Martin.

Zimmerman may have just asked him a few questions...and even if he did sound accusatory there's no law against that. You have to show that Zimmerman 1) pulled his weapon 2) touched Martin or 3) levied a threat against Martin.

Same goes for Martin...it would have to show he 1) pretended he had a weapon 2) touched Zimmerman or 3) levied a threat against Zimmerman.

No one knows when Zimmerman pulled his weapon. Buddy of mine has a CCW permit and has one in an ankle holster all the time and you'd never know it. Did Zimmerman pull it at the beginning? Don't know. Did Zimmerman pull it out as the fight broke out? Don't know. Did Zimmerman have to pull it out in fear for his life? Don't know.


I don't know a ton about gun laws, but do we know if Zimmerman had a carry/conceal permit? Is that separate from a "regular" gun permit?

Regardless, as I said previously, he followed Martin with a loaded gun. No violence would've occurred had Zimmerman not pursued him, therefore, Zimmerman provoked the violence and used deadly force. And as I said, if that is currently a loophole in Florida/federal laws, then this case needs to set a precedent.

#507 Panthro

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 03:14 PM

This sort of ignorant generalizations got an innocent man accused of bombing the Atlanta Olympics...just because he looked like Paul Blart and lived with his mom and psychologists were all about profiling.

YOU are against profiling...wait what about all those other threads.

#508 g5jamz

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 03:17 PM

YOU are against profiling...wait what about all those other threads.


What other threads.

As for the gun thing...no clue on whether Zimmerman has a CCW permit or not. Doubtful if he'd had prior violence convictions.
Go read my grocery store example and see if you come to the same conclusion.

#509 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 03:23 PM

Security, whether in a mall, gated community, hospital, etc, does have the authority to follow a suspicious person. Now he should have backed off once the dispatcher told him to...that's no crime either though. I'm not sure if anyone will ever know, other than Zimmerman, who started a confrontation and who the aggressor was. The kid didn't deserve to die but I don't think he knew he was just a kid. If the kid started the fight and was getting the upper hand on him, then I get why he shot him. If Zimmerman started the fight, if there was one, then he had no right to use a gun. A whole lot of "ifs" with no good outcome for anyone involved.


I don' think Zimmerman was security per say. He was neighborhood watch, and I think that just means he is suppose to report suspicious activity. But I wonder why a neighborhood watch would need to carry guns. I would think a radio or cellphone would be the only thing required.

That being said, I don't think there is much chance of him being convicted of murder. He might get a lesser conviction.

However, it does seem that the family might have grounds for one heck of a lawsuit.

#510 g5jamz

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 03:24 PM

I don' think Zimmerman was security per say. He was neighborhood watch, and I think that just means he is suppose to report suspicious activity. But I wonder why a neighborhood watch would need to carry guns. I would think a radio or cellphone would be the only thing required.

That being said, I don't think there is much chance of him being convicted of murder. He might get a lesser conviction.

However, it does seem that the family might have grounds for one heck of a lawsuit.


Yep...there's a civil case for sure.


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