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More dwill contract rant


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#226 CRA

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:49 PM

I have no problem with you or anyone else stating your opinions as long as you know that is what they are. When I use stats and numbers to back up my opinions I still understand they are opinions whether supported or not. We really can't have an intelligent conversation until we at least can discern the difference between a fact and an opinion. If you think that is talking down to you, you place yourself there not me. I am just striving for common ground but admit the worksheet might be over the top..........:D


yeah, if you would have left the worksheet out I wouldn't of even mentioned it but come on....I can't let you post that without calling you on it. Anyway, we have beat stuff in the ground for a couple years now. I enjoy it. I don't come here to be right.....it is a good way to pass time talking about my Panthers.

#227 Stroupe-a-loop

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:50 PM

Well Henry, I think we had some constructive dialogue and while we had no definitive agreement, there was clearly movement toward a common understanding. I would characterize these discussions as generally productive which opens up the door for further movement in the future.


I believe that, truly, we have achieved that and we should all remember that only nixon could go to china and only kissinger could talk his way into jill st. John's bed.

#228 Peppers90 NC

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:51 PM

Opinion not shared by the team, FO or staff.


i find it humorous message board geeks actually believe they know more and know better than people who are in the industry.

#229 CRA

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:52 PM

I think you are getting it. If you said it is a fact he could throw the ball over your house then that would be a hypothesis or an opinion not a fact. If you witness him doing it then it is fact that he did it. If you video tape it so everyone can see it, then it is a supported fact based on visual evidence.

:party:


Oh, I always got it. Like I said, I don't see the point of nitpicking someone who states something as fact like Cam Newton can throw a football over my house. Pointless. We all know it is true whether it meets the actual definition of what a fact is. This is a message board.

#230 CRA

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:57 PM

i find it humorous message board geeks actually believe they know more and know better than people who are in the industry.


I find it humorous people act like those in the NFL business can't make easy mistakes even morons can point out.

There are coaches in the NFL who can't even get basic clock management right at the end of games middle school coaches have down.....

NFL is no different than any other business. People do dumb poo in every walk of life.....some of it even children can spot. Can't always use the defense of....well, you aren't paid to do the job therefore you have to be wrong.

I am not as smart as Hurney in regards to football nor know even a 1/4 of what he knows about that world....doesn't mean he can't do something stupid that is glaring (this issue aside).

#231 frash.exe

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 12:45 AM

They passed for 4734 and rushed for 1427 yards on 1028 plays for 6 yard a play.

We passed for 3829 and rushed for 2408 on 992 plays for a 6.2 yards a play.

When you look at the offensive side of the ball for the Panthers last year- Wharton, Kalil and Gross cost more than Newton, Williams, Stewart, Smith, Shockey combined. And we were going to pay them whether we ran or threw. The running backs were not where the big bucks went, it is the offensive line.

Your contention that we are paying too much for an obsolete part of our game isn't true.

Now if you had said we way overspent on the defensive side of the ball last year for poor results then I could agree.

If you look on the defensive side- Gamble, Johnson and Beason alone accounted for almost 1/5 of the cap. And the defense being banged up and on IR is why we struggled last year. The Giants got a lot more production than we did on the defensive side of the ball.


What we spent on the offensive line last year wasn't modest at all, but it isn't something I'd consider excessive. Still, I think even with the departure of Wharton we're talented enough to get by without investing high picks, and with the extension of Hangartner, if we can nab Jason Brown I think we're set in the interior.

The problem with running back is that I'm sorry but if this team's top priority was to fill the roster with talent, DeAngelo would be playing somewhere else. When we pay big money to Stewart (and you know it's forthcoming) we're essentially paying 2 guys starting money to play one position on the field. The right thing to do would be to have let Williams walk if he wasn't enthused at coming back for half the money and making Stewart the feature back. He's talented enough to carry a bigger load, and it's not critical to have a backfield stacked with starters to help your rookie QB. Flacco had done well with rookie ray rice, a fullback, and a guy who got his knee torn asunder in college. Matt Ryan put together a good rookie season and Michael Turner was the main guy. The only reason they gave this extension to Williams is because we drafted him and he's proven himself capable at some point or another. When your criterion is that singular you're going to suffer in talent at other positions in cases like this, and Richardson is basically counting on Rivera to make chicken salad out of chicken poo at a bunch of other positions, especially on defense, because I don't see us patching any need with a proven starter from free agency in the forseeable future.

#232 panthers55

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:39 AM

What we spent on the offensive line last year wasn't modest at all, but it isn't something I'd consider excessive. Still, I think even with the departure of Wharton we're talented enough to get by without investing high picks, and with the extension of Hangartner, if we can nab Jason Brown I think we're set in the interior.

The problem with running back is that I'm sorry but if this team's top priority was to fill the roster with talent, DeAngelo would be playing somewhere else. When we pay big money to Stewart (and you know it's forthcoming) we're essentially paying 2 guys starting money to play one position on the field. The right thing to do would be to have let Williams walk if he wasn't enthused at coming back for half the money and making Stewart the feature back. He's talented enough to carry a bigger load, and it's not critical to have a backfield stacked with starters to help your rookie QB. Flacco had done well with rookie ray rice, a fullback, and a guy who got his knee torn asunder in college. Matt Ryan put together a good rookie season and Michael Turner was the main guy. The only reason they gave this extension to Williams is because we drafted him and he's proven himself capable at some point or another. When your criterion is that singular you're going to suffer in talent at other positions in cases like this, and Richardson is basically counting on Rivera to make chicken salad out of chicken poo at a bunch of other positions, especially on defense, because I don't see us patching any need with a proven starter from free agency in the forseeable future.


FIrst of all there is no way we could get rid of Williams because if we released or traded him his remaining signing bonus would escalate resulting in a cap hit of 10 million this year and next year right at 7 million unless we made it a June 1 release next year and it would be a manageable 3.5 million. So he is here this year and likely next. Hurney knew that when he made the contract so he is obviously comfortable with him here and has no plans to move him anytime soon. The coulda, shoulda, woulda back and forth is really only individual poster opinion not obviously shared by the team or front office who make the decisions whether we like it or not.
They gave him the extension because Denver wanted him and was going to pay for him and we wanted him more so we paid more from what I remember. We thought we needed him and paid him enough to keep him here despite the fact we were 2-14 and the worse franchise in the football at the time. If we hadn't paid him big bucks and Johnson as well,they would be playing else where.
The coaching staff decided that is was important to get a great running game to support a rookie quarterback and fix the offense after the dismal 2010 year.
You can go back and decide if you had to do it all over again you would do it differently but that is water under the bridge. For that matter if we had hindsight as our guide we wouldn't have signed Beason because we could have saved 25 million on that contract given what he would be worth coming back now with a major injury. We could have not signed Davis as well and saved some money as well. That money would have been spent on the defense where it belonged since neither of them played last year.
Even if we signed Williams for half the money he would have been signed for 4 million this year. Are you really telling me that 4 million dollars would make all the difference this year and we could fix the defense for that?? We will have that much in dead cap space. In a salary cap of 120 million, 4 million is not the make it or break it amount people make it out to be. At least he played last year and was productive. We had a bunch of guys who didn't play who collectively cost us more than he did.
As for Stewart handling the load, how do you know?? He has never had more than 221 carries in any year in his career. You can speculate he will be fine but do you know??? I am sure there is a positive correlation between injury and number of carries. Sure he hasn't gotten really hurt yet but until last year Peterson hadn't either, didn't stop him from going down with knee issues.
There is no evidence we suffered in talent elsewhere to sacrifice for Williams. Assuming we would have brought in someone else in free agency or signed him for 4 or 5 million a year instead of 8 million, you end up with a realistic difference of 3-4 million. Again 3 or 4 million a year isn't the make it or break it amount you and others make it out to be. it would get you another Mare, maybe an Edwards or perhaps a decent linebacker but it won't get you a top DE, corner or even a top linebacker in a very weak class this year like Tulle who wants 8 million bucks a season. This bitching about 1 contract for over a year which may have cost us 3 or 4 million a year more than it could have is ridiculous.

As for getting rid of Williams altogether, yeah if we had done that and heaven forbid Stewart went down, the bitching on here would have gone for a year
about how stupid that was to dump guys that have been there for the franchise and just shows how cheap Richardson is and that he doesn''t want to be a winner. Sound familiar???

#233 stirs

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:58 AM

Other threads reporting that Tolbert might be on the way here.

This would mean that the Panthers are turning the corner and have winning in mind. I love DWill, I love Stewart. Both are deserving of big money, which means it is not prudent for any team to pay both. You are using emotion rather than common sense. Go away from being a fan, and be a business man for just a moment and work through your budget. You will have certain amounts pegged for Offense and Defense, and then broken down by postion underneath that. Or, be the Patriots, or Steelers for a moment. What would they do with both of these guys? It does not take you a minute to figure out that they would know that they have X amount of dollars set aside for RB's and since you have paid most of that to one RB, your remainder of money will be spread over two more lesser backs.

They would also see this as an opportunity. Since they would never be able to sign both, they are very lucky that the one unsigned guy has trade value. They would trade the pick and thank their lucky stars.

#234 cotblock

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 01:14 PM

I find it humorous people act like those in the NFL business can't make easy mistakes even morons can point out.


What appears to you to be a mistake is not always a mistake.

There are coaches in the NFL who can't even get basic clock management right at the end of games middle school coaches have down.....


Maybe. Maybe that's only how it looks to you.

NFL is no different than any other business.


And you know this from all your extensive experience working for an NFL franchise?

People do dumb poo in every walk of life.....some of it even children can spot. Can't always use the defense of....well, you aren't paid to do the job therefore you have to be wrong.


You don't have to be wrong, it's just more probable that you are since there's no way you can know all the details unless you've been there and done that. Have you?

I am not as smart as Hurney in regards to football nor know even a 1/4 of what he knows about that world....doesn't mean he can't do something stupid that is glaring (this issue aside).


He can do lots of glaringly stupid things. If they are related to his job, however, he may get reprimanded the first time, demoted or duties taken away the second, but the third time he's gone. Unless, of course, you are assuming the boss is a moron. Are you?

I trust you know perfectly well that JR was not only aware of DWill's contract, but readily approved it. Do you think JR is a stupid owner? There's little question that some folks who own NFL franchises know far less than they think they do about running an NFL franchise, but do you suppose JR is one of those? The buck stops with him. If, as you allude, Hurney has made more than a couple of glaring mistakes that a child could spot, then either JR is a moron or otherwise incompetent, or he doesn't care about winning a championship. Which do you suppose it is?

#235 bigdog10

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 03:52 PM

The only thing that bothers me about the deal is that Stewart better fits this system than deangelo does. Stewart ran a similar offense in Oregon and excelled at it.

The good news is, we should be able to find a similar style back in the draft over the next two years. However, I doubt they will be as good as Stewart could be

#236 Wyank

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 04:08 PM

Opinion not shared by the team, FO or staff.


After the opinion vs fact argument you guys just went through, it's funny you would just post your belief or thoughts as a fact. You believe or think the team, FO, and/or staff still hold the opinion that D Will was worth the contract given. Just becuase he is still on the team does not automatically mean the team doesn't regret the contract they gave. Just means they can't get out of the contract yet. They could regret it, they might not. We don't know and never will.

#237 cotblock

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 04:40 PM

After the opinion vs fact argument you guys just went through, it's funny you would just post your belief or thoughts as a fact. You believe or think the team, FO, and/or staff still hold the opinion that D Will was worth the contract given. Just becuase he is still on the team does not automatically mean the team doesn't regret the contract they gave. Just means they can't get out of the contract yet. They could regret it, they might not. We don't know and never will.


You're correct that there's no way we can know whether the team regrets the contract or not. However, we can surmise, based on facts, that such a regret is very unlikely, and here's why: the FO was quite well aware of the situation after the CBA was settled and understood the terms of future contracts under the new agreement. Remember, none of the extensions were given until the new CBA went into effect. I find it quite difficult to believe that they never even considered that offering such a contract to DWill would all but eliminate the possibility of keeping Stewart. In fact, it is highly likely that they considered several possible outcomes, some of which we likely cannot even imagine. Given that they had far more information then, and have far more information now, it would have been extremely short-sighted of them (and I mean, short-sighted to the point of idiocy) to assume that things would somehow just "work out" to keep them both. So the most likely explanation is that the circumstances dictated that the most prudent thing to do was to lock up a proven back and see how it played out from there.

These are huge business decisions that these executives do not make lightly. They study and investigate and research - that is what they are paid to do. It's not like in Madden or a Fantasy league where you can just make a decision based on a whim or a hunch. These people are making decisions that can affect their careers. It's amazing to me that some people must think that Hurney et. al. just sit around drinking beer and laughing and making decisions by pissing in hats or something.

Do they make mistakes? Absolutely. But signing a proven vet, who has given everything he has to help the team, to a long-term contract is not a mistake and there is no reason for regret. The executives may regret that the economics of the game have made keeping two all-star caliber backs under contract for their entire careers prohibitive, but that would be a horse of a different color. Do they regret locking up DWill? I'd bet my last dollar there isn't a single executive in the Panther organization that does. Would they like to keep JStew too? Almost certainly...though that's a bet I wouldn't make because the evidence suggests that there are factors in play that are beyond our knowledge. We can guess about all sorts of things that may have happened or are happening, but in the end, you either believe that JR is passionate about winning a title and has the business and football acumen to hire the right people to make that happen, or he isn't or doesn't. That's basically what it comes down to.

#238 Wyank

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 05:04 PM

You're correct that there's no way we can know whether the team regrets the contract or not. However, we can surmise, based on facts, that such a regret is very unlikely, and here's why: the FO was quite well aware of the situation after the CBA was settled and understood the terms of future contracts under the new agreement. Remember, none of the extensions were given until the new CBA went into effect. I find it quite difficult to believe that they never even considered that offering such a contract to DWill would all but eliminate the possibility of keeping Stewart. In fact, it is highly likely that they considered several possible outcomes, some of which we likely cannot even imagine. Given that they had far more information then, and have far more information now, it would have been extremely short-sighted of them (and I mean, short-sighted to the point of idiocy) to assume that things would somehow just "work out" to keep them both. So the most likely explanation is that the circumstances dictated that the most prudent thing to do was to lock up a proven back and see how it played out from there.

These are huge business decisions that these executives do not make lightly. They study and investigate and research - that is what they are paid to do. It's not like in Madden or a Fantasy league where you can just make a decision based on a whim or a hunch. These people are making decisions that can affect their careers. It's amazing to me that some people must think that Hurney et. al. just sit around drinking beer and laughing and making decisions by pissing in hats or something.

Do they make mistakes? Absolutely. But signing a proven vet, who has given everything he has to help the team, to a long-term contract is not a mistake and there is no reason for regret. The executives may regret that the economics of the game have made keeping two all-star caliber backs under contract for their entire careers prohibitive, but that would be a horse of a different color. Do they regret locking up DWill? I'd bet my last dollar there isn't a single executive in the Panther organization that does. Would they like to keep JStew too? Almost certainly...though that's a bet I wouldn't make because the evidence suggests that there are factors in play that are beyond our knowledge. We can guess about all sorts of things that may have happened or are happening, but in the end, you either believe that JR is passionate about winning a title and has the business and football acumen to hire the right people to make that happen, or he isn't or doesn't. That's basically what it comes down to.


And all of that is still your opinion on the thoughts of the FO. My thoughts are the HC would rather have Stew than Williams. Heck he even puts Stew on the field more than Williams. 55.2% of the plays to 42.73%. Even though he is the 2nd RB on the depth chart. We can only guess what they are thinking in hind sight. Me personally, I'd take Stewart each and every time over Williams.

Both of us are giving opinions. I just didn't need to write out all of that to give my opinion. :)