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Source: Rb Mike Tolbert Visiting Carolina Panthers This Weekend


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#241 panthers55

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:28 PM

Yeah, he doesn't fit as well in a passing offense. That is why Chud gave Stewart the most time on the field. Williams is weak in pass protection.

He is 29...RBs don't play often much longer. Give a thousand reasons why Williams will be an exception to that I'd you want...

And no Williams and Tolbert aren't a like...that is why in this scheme were pass protection, receiving, and running between the tackles narrows the gap between the 2.

That is just reality


Generalities with no factual basis. He had his second best average per attempt this year at 5.4. Which is 1/10 of a yard lower than his career best. lets wait until he actually drops off before proclaiming he is almost done. And who says he is weak in pass protection, if Stewart is better and that is an if,it doesn't make Williams weak. You seem too suffer from the "either or" syndrome while I prefer the "both concept.

As I said once Chud figured out how to use both of them the ground game was very effective. Both of them had 6 yards a carry and ran the ball more in the last 8 games than before the bye. If you look at it though most of the time one was more effective than the other against a particular opponent. Rarely were they both bad or great against the same opponent. At this point they provide differing styles which work differently based on what the defense is giving us. If we had missed either of them we would have struggled running the ball.

#242 panthers55

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:38 PM

I think it's fair to say Chud likes Stewart in this system more.


I think you and others are making too much of one season. Lets see what happens this year now that everyone will have a season under their belt and a full off-season to prepare. If the same thing happens this year then you are right. We did a lot of things on the fly this year and built them as we went.

#243 MadHatter

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:08 AM

Sorry guys.

With the rumblings about how Stewart was NOT willing to talk about a contract extension last year and now this news, it is LIKELY that this will be Stewart's last season with Carolina. It would suck....but refusing to see the writing on the wall will NOT make the outcome any different.

#244 Toundra

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:17 AM

I don't care about Tolbert i am not a chargers fan i am a Carolina Panthers Fan and Da & JS are Panthers for life.
Can we trade Rivera for a 7th?

#245 CRA

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:47 AM

Generalities with no factual basis. He had his second best average per attempt this year at 5.4. Which is 1/10 of a yard lower than his career best. lets wait until he actually drops off before proclaiming he is almost done. And who says he is weak in pass protection, if Stewart is better and that is an if,it doesn't make Williams weak. You seem too suffer from the "either or" syndrome while I prefer the "bIoth concept.

As I said once Chud figured out how to use both of them the ground game was very effective. Both of them had 6 yards a carry and ran the ball more in the last 8 games than before the bye. If you look at it though most of the time one was more effective than the other against a particular opponent. Rarely were they both bad or great against the same opponent. At this point they provide differing styles which work differently based on what the defense is giving us. If we had missed either of them we would have struggled running the ball.

Williams is weak in pass protection. That is why he was rarely asked to do it and when he does his execution isn't great.

And yeah, it did take Chud longer to figure out how to use Williams since he doesn't fit as well...

And quoting stats only can take any argument so far....watching the games last season it was clear who the most important RB was... and that was Stewart.

#246 stirs

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:50 AM

Sorry guys.

With the rumblings about how Stewart was NOT willing to talk about a contract extension last year and now this news, it is LIKELY that this will be Stewart's last season with Carolina. It would suck....but refusing to see the writing on the wall will NOT make the outcome any different.


It is like pearls to the swine my friend

#247 panthers55

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:50 AM

Sorry guys.

With the rumblings about how Stewart was NOT willing to talk about a contract extension last year and now this news, it is LIKELY that this will be Stewart's last season with Carolina. It would suck....but refusing to see the writing on the wall will NOT make the outcome any different.

It would interesting to know if they presented offers to both guys last year to see which wanted to be here. If Stewart doesn't want to be here the only way he stays is if we tag him. But the contract to Williams would make more sense.

#248 CRA

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:01 AM

I don't care about Tolbert i am not a chargers fan i am a Carolina Panthers Fan and Da & JS are Panthers for life.
Can we trade Rivera for a 7th?


For life? You don't actually want all your favorite players to be here their entire career....that wouldn't actually be good. Players generally don't walk away on top....they generally walk away after clearly not being good anymore and can't find a job. You don't want guys that should retire taking up roster spots.



#249 panthers55

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:01 AM

Williams is weak in pass protection. That is why he was rarely asked to do it and when he does his execution isn't great.

And yeah, it did take Chud longer to figure out how to use Williams since he doesn't fit as well...

And quoting stats only can take any argument so far....watching the games last season it was clear who the most important RB was... and that was Stewart.


Again you logic is pedantic and very biased. Give me one stat or evaluation besides number of plays that supports Williams is poor in pass protection. Even if Stewart is a better blocker which you haven't proven, it doesn't make Williams a poor blocker. Saying it over and over with no evidence doesn't make it true.
I watch every game and didn't see it so now what?? The fact that is took longer for the offensive line to figure out how to effectively block on cutbacks and outside runs and for Chud to develop the option running scheme doesn't mean Williams doesn't fit the scheme. It means after not calling plays for 3 years and not having an off-season to prepare, it took time for Chud to develop our scheme. The argument could also be made that Stewart fit our initial scheme but that as we went to a more option based scheme Williams fit better given he had more big runs and showed more explosive ability in the second half of the year. Just depends on your point of view.

#250 Toundra

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:14 AM

For life? You don't actually want all your favorite players to be here their entire career....that wouldn't actually be good. Players generally don't walk away on top....they generally walk away after clearly not being good anymore and can't find a job. You don't want guys that should retire taking up roster spots.


It is true for most players but not for players like, Smitty, Beason, JS, DA, Kallil & Gross.
Those players are the soul of the team.

#251 carpanfan96

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:18 AM

I don't think he leaves Charlotte without a contract and there's a ton of rumors that Stewart is going to be on the trading block if a deal with Tolbert is finished.

#252 CRA

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:19 AM

Again you logic is pedantic and very biased. Give me one stat or evaluation besides number of plays that supports Williams is poor in pass protection. Even if Stewart is a better blocker which you haven't proven, it doesn't make Williams a poor blocker. Saying it over and over with no evidence doesn't make it true.
I watch every game and didn't see it so now what?? The fact that is took longer for the offensive line to figure out how to effectively block on cutbacks and outside runs and for Chud to develop the option running scheme doesn't mean Williams doesn't fit the scheme. It means after not calling plays for 3 years and not having an off-season to prepare, it took time for Chud to develop our scheme. The argument could also be made that Stewart fit our initial scheme but that as we went to a more option based scheme Williams fit better given he had more big runs and showed more explosive ability in the second half of the year. Just depends on your point of view.


I have no need to give you a reason more than Chud's documented use of the RBs. Stewart fit better an gave Chud more options....so Chud played him more. You are too caught up in trying to defend Williams.....it was obvious to even those that want Williams to retire here that Stewart fits in this offense better.

You have can argue Williams should remain a Panther but he isn't better than Stewart in this offense. Stewart does more....quote Williams rushing stats all you want.

We both know Stewart is the better RB in Carolina NOW.... We both know that. You are wanting to argue about documentation/support of something we both know is true. Which is silly

#253 CRA

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:22 AM

It is true for most players but not for players like, Smitty, Beason, JS, DA, Kallil & Gross.
Those players are the soul of the team.


No, it is true for them as well. Much better players than all of them have gone on to other teams before forced to retire. They can all retire here....however you won't want them all to play every down of their careers here of they want to collect checks and play as long as they physically can be on a field.

#254 panthers55

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:33 AM

Maybe someone who has paid for the prescription can tell us how our running backs fared in 2011 as far as blitz pickup. The 2010 stats don't include Williams or Stewart in the top 15 or bottom 15 in that category. Unless we think anecdotal observation of TV footage by biased fans is more accurate.

http://www.profootba...-running-backs/

#255 panthers55

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:47 AM

I have no need to give you a reason more than Chud's documented use of the RBs. Stewart fit better an gave Chud more options....so Chud played him more. You are too caught up in trying to defend Williams.....it was obvious to even those that want Williams to retire here that Stewart fits in this offense better.

You have can argue Williams should remain a Panther but he isn't better than Stewart in this offense. Stewart does more....quote Williams rushing stats all you want.

We both know Stewart is the better RB in Carolina NOW.... We both know that. You are wanting to argue about documentation/support of something we both know is true. Which is silly


No, you are too caught up in trying to justify your belief that Williams was overpaid that it has morphed into a discussion that is anti-Williams at ever turn. People like me are simply trying to give balance to the argument and asking for some statistical evidence that what you have said is true besides your own biased views and opinions. I have also said that 1 year of a trend hardly indicates definitive proof of anything.

What will be interesting is if Stewart is traded as rumored then where will that leave you?? And what if we find out that the deal to Williams was done because they offered deals to both guys and only Williams wanted to be here. I don't know if any of that is true but the constant negativity against Hurney, Williams and "either or" character of your posts is why folks like me take up the gauntlet. I have no issue with Stewart or Williams and will defend either of them against negative unproven criticism. As for your assertion that Stewart is better, he was not a better runner in 2011, They were different and both averaged 5.4 yards per carry. Stewart did catch more passes but had more opportunities as well. Stewart averaged 8.8 yards a catch and Williams averaged 8.4. If that in your mind makes him better last year, fine. I have never argued that Stewart didn't have a great year or that Williams was better or worse. I have argued they are different backs who complement each other.


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