Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Jonathan Stewart The Most Elusive Rb In The Nfl?


  • Please log in to reply
174 replies to this topic

#61 panthers55

panthers55

    Starting all over again

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,062 posts
  • LocationAt the lake

Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:33 AM

Why would a NFL RB sign a backloaded contract?

Also, if there is comparable money out there for then location and reps/role come into play. Carolina made there choice....paying Stewart like Williams would just be making a mistake worse. Too much talent on the bench...not enough on the field

Most every contract is the NFL is back loaded. Williams was slightly front loaded in year 1, 2 and 3 to account for the years before 2014 but it is still backloaded in 2014 and 2015. Every player knows that only the guaranteed money counts so you take a back loaded contract if the guaranteed money makes sense which can be a combination of signing bonuses, guaranteed salary in years 2 or 3 for example. In addition there are option bonuses, roster bonuses, incentives and other ways to structure a contract.

I know you have to keep up the argument that William's contract doomed the team so now you are taking the second tack that since we signed Williams we are doomed to lose Stewart through a trade or him walking but it just isn't true. We can keep both if we want to. The question is simple do we want to, and does Stewart want to be here. If the answer to both is yes, then we can work something out.

#62 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

    Senior Member

  • Moderators
  • 26,425 posts

Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:34 AM

And if runningbacks are a dime a dozen why are there several making more than Williams is this year and why is Richardson a top 5 pick.


None of those making more than Williams on other teams are accounting for 35% of the rushing yards and 27% of the rushing TDs.

Richardson is only a top 5 pick for a team wishing to put a load on him making him responsible for the overwhelming bulk of the production.

The fact we are attempting to pay feature back money for 2 players to be role players is just beyond absurd.

#63 Lumps

Lumps

    Jase is butthurt

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,595 posts
  • LocationSouth Charlotte

Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:41 AM

I would take a 1st or 2nd in a heart beat.

We can not b/c over attached to our players.

Wish Hurney would leave.


fixed.

#64 Lumps

Lumps

    Jase is butthurt

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,595 posts
  • LocationSouth Charlotte

Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:42 AM

But in reality he is a JR guy who will be known for being a JR guy because he isn't good and was kept around until JR is no longer owner. I'd bet on it.

#65 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

    Senior Member

  • Moderators
  • 26,425 posts

Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:45 AM

Most every contract is theNFl is back loaded. Williams was slightly front loaded in year 1, 2 and 3 to account for the years before 2014 but it is still backloaded in 2014 and 2015. every player knows that only the guaranteed money counts so you take a back loaded contract if the guaranteed money makes sense which can be a combination of signing bonuses, guaranteed salary in years 2 or 3 for example. In addition there are option bonuses, roster bonuses, incentives and other ways to restructure a contract.

I know you have to keep up the argument that William's contract doomed the team so now you are taking the second tack that since we signed Williams we are doomed to lose Stewart through a trade or him walking but it just isn't true. We can keep both if we want to. The question is simple do we want to, and does Stewart want to be here. If the answer to both is yes, then we can work something out.


Williams contract didn't doom the team....it was just a mistake. Again, you don't pay someone Chris Johnson type money and ask them for DeAngleo 2011 type production. You also don't pay an aging RB feature money when you drafted a young stud like Stewart and he is on your roster.

and yes we can keep both if we want. We could draft Richardson if wanted to....have Williams, Stewart, Richardson, and Tolbert. It comes at a cost to invest in your backfield. Doesn't matter how you play w/ numbers.....doing so prevents you from investing at other spots. Just silly at this point. In this league.

Carolina has one of the most effiecient/productive runners in the NFL.......in Cam Newton. Over investing in the backfield is just silly w/ this roster and scheme.

#66 panthers55

panthers55

    Starting all over again

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,062 posts
  • LocationAt the lake

Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:50 AM

None of those making more than Williams on other teams are accounting for 35% of the rushing yards and 27% of the rushing TDs.

Richardson is only a top 5 pick for a team wishing to put a load on him making him responsible for the overwhelming bulk of the production.

The fact we are attempting to pay feature back money for 2 players to be role players is just beyond absurd.


Are you sure about that? Go back and look at the top 5 salaried backs for this year and look at their production last year.

Adrian Peterson accounted for 1100 total yards last year and is coming off ACL surgery. He will account for almost 14 million dollars this year in cap space.

Williams cost 8.5 million and had 970 yards

McFadden cap hit 9.5 million. Total yards in 2011- 775 total yards

#67 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

    Senior Member

  • Moderators
  • 26,425 posts

Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:50 AM

you think the Eagles would be interested in acquiring Jonathan Stewart for Williams' cost? your response would be hell no.

you would say the Eagles already have one of the best RBs in the game in McCoy and Vick already brings a unique dimension to that...they just need a role player and need to focus on the rest of the team.

#68 panthers55

panthers55

    Starting all over again

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,062 posts
  • LocationAt the lake

Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:55 AM

Williams contract didn't doom the team....it was just a mistake. Again, you don't pay someone Chris Johnson type money and ask them for DeAngleo 2011 type production. You also don't pay an aging RB feature money when you drafted a young stud like Stewart and he is on your roster.

and yes we can keep both if we want. We could draft Richardson if wanted to....have Williams, Stewart, Richardson, and Tolbert. It comes at a cost to invest in your backfield. Doesn't matter how you play w/ numbers.....doing so prevents you from investing at other spots. Just silly at this point. In this league.

Carolina has one of the most effiecient/productive runners in the NFL.......in Cam Newton. Over investing in the backfield is just silly w/ this roster and scheme.


Mistakes in hindsight are easy to point out. Given that Stewart wouldn't negotiate, Newton was a brand new rookie, Fox was hot to sign Williams, and we needed to show fans and players that we weren't cheap after dumping veterans in 2010, we paid what we thought we needed to pay to keep him. Given we were a 2-14 team who was awful and no one wanted to play for us unless we paid them a bunch, it made sense then. The same thing happened with Johnson. Now we are a dynamic team with a new offense and are much sexier to play for. So we may not have to pay as much.

As for Newton reprising last year, lets wait and see. You always seem to be one to jump in headlong stating trends and ideas based on limited information and history. Lets see what happens this year before deciding how thing will be.

#69 panthers55

panthers55

    Starting all over again

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,062 posts
  • LocationAt the lake

Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:57 AM

you think the Eagles would be interested in acquiring Jonathan Stewart for Williams' cost? your response would be hell no.

you would say the Eagles already have one of the best RBs in the game in McCoy and Vick already brings a unique dimension to that...they just need a role player and need to focus on the rest of the team.


Poor example they run a west coast offense. Would a team like the Jets bring in Stewart or even Denver who run a WCO but still have Fox as their coach. I think they would want him and might pay him a bunch.

#70 megadeth078

megadeth078

    hate hate hate

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,064 posts
  • LocationTexas

Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:57 AM

If Stewart is not here it won't be because Hurney didn't try and sign him, it will because Stewart wants to go elsewhere. It is Stewart who is supposedly not negotiating. Tolbert was brought in because Stewart wouldn't negotiate from what I can tell. Could we keep both of them? I think so. Williams will count around 8 million cap space next year (4.75 million salary). Stewart will count his prorated signing bonus next year and a nominal salary which is very typical the first year of a contract. If it was like William's contract he will cost 3.2 million in prorated signing bonus and likely 1.5 million in salary. His will be backloaded while WIlliams was somewhat front loaded. So between them it will likely be roughly 13 million. With Tolbert it will be 15 million. How is that much different than this year where Williams costs 8.5 million cap space, Stewart is 2.6 million and Tolbert is 2 million? So we can afford 13 million this year but can't afford 15 million next year??

The reality is that if we can't afford them next year, we can't afford them this year. I think we can afford them this year and can do so again next year. With the increased cap space in 2014 and likelihood that Wiliams will be done in a few years, it makes keeping Stewart both very doable but desirable. If he isn't here it will be by his own making not Hurney's.

Cam is signed through 2014 with an option year already built in 2015. There is absolutely no reason to worry about extending him before 2014 at the earliest. We only have to worry about 2013 and as I just showed a few posts ago, the increase next year to keep Stewart will likely be around 2 million dollars. Not the king's ransom some of you suggest or that much more than we are spendiing this year. With the cap space likely to go up by 20-30 million in 2014, there is not a huge crisis here.

20 million is way overstated. we will spend 13 million this year and likely 15 million next year assuming we keep all three. If we can't afford them next year, we can't afford them this year either,

Sure it is. Cap space is not the same as Salary. Wwe can sign him to a big contract but since he gets the signing bonus up front he doesn't need a big salary. So we have a cap friendly contract for 2013, he gets a fat signing bonus and the majority of the contract is deferred until 2014 or later when the cap increases. Meanwhile William's cap hit if we release him goes down every year so that by 2014 if we do a June 1st release we have a very manageable 3 million a year in dead cap space if hee tailss off his production. If he stay productive the 16 million will be only 1/10th of the cap hit in 2014.

If we trade Stewart it is because we know we can't sign him long-term and can't afford to tag him and pay him 8 million next year. The ball is in his court.


Thanks, you've given me a lot of hope that keeping my favorite player for the long haul isn't impossible. With the increase in cap next season and salary cap shenanigans, I'm starting to think we really can bring Stewart back if we wanted (we do). People can talk all day about spending too much in the backfield, but you're right about us having a lot of money invested in the backfield as of right now. If we are okay with spending that much right now, what's a little more going to hurt considering the increase in salary cap? 13 million doesn't hurt us right now, but 15-17 million next season will kill us?

I can't believe there's people that support giving up the best running back in the league without a fight, especially with the possibility of tagging him and making a team give up a first rounder to take him from us. Stop begging for 3rd rounders guys, we're not out of time or options yet. Stop valuing picks over our own players too. You guys are just as shallow and pathetic as bandwagoners. It's embarrassing.

Good argument about spending 1/6th of the cap last season on two lineman on an average line. Puts it all in perspective I suppose. Oh Hurney, please work that magic of yours that I doubt ever so often.

#71 carolina-chuck

carolina-chuck

    HORNETS 2014

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,678 posts
  • LocationKurby

Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:05 AM

Trade Williams. Keep 28!
Stewart and Tolbert are similar backs but I think Stewart is much more better than DWill.

#72 panthers55

panthers55

    Starting all over again

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,062 posts
  • LocationAt the lake

Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:09 AM

Trade Williams. Keep 28!
Stewart and Tolbert are similar backs but I think Stewart is much more better than DWill.


Brilliant!!!

Ignore that trading Williams will cost us 13.2 million in dead cap space!!!

#73 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

    Senior Member

  • Moderators
  • 26,425 posts

Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:11 AM

Are you sure about that? Go back and look at the top 5 salaried backs for this year and look at their production last year.

Adrian Peterson accounted for 1100 total yards last year and is coming off ACL surgery. He will account for almost 14 million dollars this year in cap space.

Williams cost 8.5 million and had 970 yards

McFadden cap hit 9.5 million. Total yards in 2011- 775 total yards


LOL, seriously? You do realize McFadden didn't play half a season and Peterson 3/4th of one?

Williams played a healthy 16 games in 2011 - 35% of teams rushing yards
McFadden played in 7 games in 2011 - 29% of teams rushing yards
Peterson played in 12 games in 2011 - 42% of the teams rushing yards

McFadden almost generated the same amout of production for his team in half the games on the ground.

McFadden is on his rookie deal....they will not give him a new deal like Williams got and expect 2011 Williams type production. You pay guys Williams type money to BE the workhorse on a team. Come on man. If you pay a RB like Williams they are expected to account for most of your production on the ground.....both those RBs you named were expected to do such and injury is the only reason why they didn't.

#74 Arnie

Arnie

    Wham Bam Thank You Cam!!

  • NEWB
  • PipPip
  • 89 posts

Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:17 AM

We need to get this guy re-signed... nothing against Tolbert, but Stew is on a whole different level.

Agreed!!

#75 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

    Senior Member

  • Moderators
  • 26,425 posts

Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:20 AM

As for Newton reprising last year, lets wait and see. You always seem to be one to jump in headlong stating trends and ideas based on limited information and history. Lets see what happens this year before deciding how thing will be.


Newton has been a key cog to his teams ground attacks and a highly effiecient/productive runner at every level and every year he has stepped onto a football field......assuming that will change would be making an assumption with little to back it. He is the ultimate mismatch.


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Shop at Amazon Contact Us: info@carolinahuddle.com