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Pff: Nickle And Dime Packages Are Being Used More Than Base Defensive Alignments In The Nfl


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#16 CatMan72

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:33 AM

Gamble is the man, Munnerlyn is good in the slot, Butler has shown promise on the outside and Hogan could be pleasant surprise.

Who knows, Martin might be much better as a corner then he was as a safety (couldn't be much worse).

#17 jarhead

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 07:00 AM

Luke will help but to me we have to much unproven talent at both cb and safety.Time will tell.

#18 DaCityKats

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:10 AM

i said this in a pre-draft thread about teams using nickel and dime packages a lot more, the NFL has changed.

#19 panthers55

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:29 AM

http://www.profootba...2%80%93-part-1/




This basically means that because of the increase in spread offenses, defenses are having to adjust by putting more defensive backs on the field. Being that we have one of the least talented groups of defensive backs in the league (and that is saying a lot considering Gamble is a top 5 corner) I believe this information to be very pertinent.


The 4-3-4 is still the most popular front. The declline in the last several years is as much a function of teams going to more prevent, exotic and hybrid looks as it is simply playing more nickel or dime looks. The traditional 4-3-5 nickel actually declined from 2008 to 2011 from 22% to 20%. The base 4-3-4 has declined around 10% while the base 3-4 has increased 2%. The front that increased the most was the 2-4-5 which is rushing 2 and putting 9 back similar to what many used in the past as a prevent defense for hurry up offenses and 2 minute drills. The other nickel package is the 3-3-5 which increases from 4% to 9% which could be used by a 4-3 or a 3-4 defense.

For those not into numbers, what does that mean? I think it means that defenses are shifting things around and using more exotic fronts and different combinations particularly on passing downs to try and slow down offenses. With teams trying more hurry up offenses and spread looks, teams are trying to contain the pass and prevent YAC as much as rushing the passer.


Hmmm. Coincidentally the team with the deepest defensive line in the league and a strong secondary put linebackers on the field less. Moar giants stuff here


That was likely a much a function of not having good linebackers due to injuries to that group. You play to your strengths.


I hope Luke can defend the pass like Polamalu. Like our defensive line, we have one good starter and barely anything else proven in the secondary. Charles Godfrey was terrible last year as well as the year before, and somehow makes more money than Reggie Nelson and Laron Landry combined, Sherrod Martin is Sherrod Martin, Captain Munnerlyn is too small to be a starter and let teams throw on him all year long, and there's been barely any investment in depth. The fact of the matter is despite our stellar linebacker core, Ron and Sean McDermott still have their work cut out for them this year. When you go willy nilly BPA in the draft and don't spend money in free agency to bring in guys from other teams, it's nearly impossible to get better where you're hurting the most.


We only played 2 fronts virtually all last year which was a based 4-3-4- 51% of the time, a 4-2-5 (nickel)- 38% of the time and a 4-1-6 (dime)- 8% of the time. Note that whenever we had to add a secondary guy we dropped a linebacker. Part of that was because Connor was a liability in the pass game and with all the injuries we had no one who could come in and perform at a high level.
Mayock called Kuechly the best cover linebacker he has ever seen coming out of college. So I think he will be the best cover linebacker we have had. If Beason comes back strong it should allow us to play base defense more often and not miss a beat. it should also allow us to attack the offense more and defend the pass on first and second down. I dont have the numbers but if I were attacking the panther defense last year I would have thrown on first and second down given Connor was in there most of the time and was a liability in the passing game.

As for free agency lets see what happens when teams trim their rosters. With every team dropping 37 players, that amount to over 1000 guys looking for work in addition to seeing who else is out there.

#20 AceMan

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:01 AM

Didn't we use Godfrey as a nickel CB last year? If we can get one corner to step up...we could go that route..we would need Godfrey to step up his tackling and play recognition ability.

CB: Gamble, Hogan/Butler
Nickle CB: Godfrey
Safety: Smith/Martin/Nakamura
Safety: Nakamura/Martin/Smith

#21 mountainpantherfan

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:12 AM

Base defense usually only refers to the front seven alignment. I think this article over simplifies this issue.

Most of the time when a team goes to a nicke or dime package its because of what the offense puts on the field. It's not like Rivera is calling a dime package just because. P55 has it right. The issues with the LBers really caused a lot of issues when offenses lined up three or more wide.

I would like to see the numbers on how often different secondary packages were used. How often were teams running cover two vs cover three vs cover one? Or the percentages of zone vs man coverage? Are teams that stay in a base even with three wides covering the third wide with a LBer or is the safety taking on that coverage?

And when teams do go into nickle and dime packages how often are they running blitzes from the LBer or Safety or even the CB positions?

If you really want to dive into these numbers and make statements based on these numbers you are going to need to also have the above info in order to clearly see what is going on and when.

#22 panthers55

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:35 AM

Base defense usually only refers to the front seven alignment. I think this article over simplifies this issue.

Most of the time when a team goes to a nicke or dime package its because of what the offense puts on the field. It's not like Rivera is calling a dime package just because. P55 has it right. The issues with the LBers really caused a lot of issues when offenses lined up three or more wide.

I would like to see the numbers on how often different secondary packages were used. How often were teams running cover two vs cover three vs cover one? Or the percentages of zone vs man coverage? Are teams that stay in a base even with three wides covering the third wide with a LBer or is the safety taking on that coverage?

And when teams do go into nickle and dime packages how often are they running blitzes from the LBer or Safety or even the CB positions?

If you really want to dive into these numbers and make statements based on these numbers you are going to need to also have the above info in order to clearly see what is going on and when.


I agree with you. I also think basing what we should we do on league wide trends is a huge mistake. Each team needs to design their schemes and different looks based on their personnel which changes and evolves each year as well as throughout the season. When you add in what you mentioned which is gameplanning for each opponent, it is way too simplistic approach to say we should play more or less nickel for example. The other factor for us is that when you play NO twice and they throw as much as they do, we are going to play them differently than we will play Atlanta which has a bigger running attack for example.

#23 ZeroZeroSeven

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:40 AM

I think it's just innovation in the game. The defenses will evolve to slow down these offenses, then the offenses will come up with something else, and so on and so forth. Kuechly could be our key to covering the Gronkowskis, Grahams, Gates and Winslows of the NFL world.

#24 ClarkCam

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:19 AM

I wanted to pick up Jayron Hosley or Stephon Gilmore the entire draft process..... I think they will both be good.... And to think that Hosley wouldn't have even been hard to get....

#25 unicar15

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:42 AM

Which is why we would have drafted Barron if he was there...we went for the next best thing which is a safe player who can cover the TE. Gilmore was not safe, which is why Hurney passed. Coples wasn't safe...so he passed. But you're never going to convince me that Coples and Gilmore won't be more valuable than Keuchly if they reach their potential.


So then the question becomes...why is Hurney so scared of taking a chance on the guys who are the most talented?

#26 panthers55

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:30 AM

Which is why we would have drafted Barron if he was there...we went for the next best thing which is a safe player who can cover the TE. Gilmore was not safe, which is why Hurney passed. Coples wasn't safe...so he passed. But you're never going to convince me that Coples and Gilmore won't be more valuable than Keuchly if they reach their potential.


So then the question becomes...why is Hurney so scared of taking a chance on the guys who are the most talented?


Your assessment is they were safer. Hurney said they picked BPA at that spot. But since you already said that no one is ever going to convince you, I won't bother to try. I will just take them at their word.

#27 Frash Brastard

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:34 AM

55 do you see us sticking with base formation to defend 3 wr sets and calling zone blitzes where Kuechly drops back in coverage because i feel like that's something they're going to do

#28 SetfreexX

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:44 AM

That may be true this year, but last year they passed on Carlos Rogers because "There isn't anything available in free agency that we don't already have with Munnerlyn."

Then he made the Pro Bowl.


49ers pass rush equals successful DB's....just see NYJ's secondary this year with no pass rush, it wasn't the same as 09-10.

#29 Peppers90 NC

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:28 PM

the 2-4-5 would be an interesting look for us, especially if all our lb'rs are able to be on the field(ja, jb, lk, and td)

#30 CPF4LIFE

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 12:58 PM

Man Munnerlyn was NOT good in the slot last year either. Dont know what yall was watchin.


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