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Game Of Thrones Grown Up Talk. Do Not Enter Unless You Have Finished All The Books


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#1 Kurb


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Posted 13 May 2012 - 01:38 PM

One my my favorite questions in the series is "Who is Jon Snow's parents"

I understand the last book mentioned a name, but I think that was too easy an out.

I found this today and it is right along with what I have been thinking.

Game of Thrones[/u], Eddard is dreaming while under the influence of the milk of the poppy for his injured leg. During this time, he has a dream about his fight with the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. GRRM has stated that this dream is not completely literal (Ned was dreaming, after all) but some basic facts can be gleaned from it.
One is that three men of the Kingsguard, Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Gerold Hightower, and Ser Oswell Whent, were present at the Tower of Joy. This is curious since, as far as the reader knows, there is no royal blood present at the Tower of Joy--just Lyanna. Then why are they there, instead of with Viserys or Daenerys? (Rhaegar and Aerys are dead by this time.)

The obvious reason is, of course, that Lyanna is carrying Rhaegar’s baby, and the Kingsguard are there to protect that portion of the royal blood. But would Rhaegar trust these men with such a secret? Probably. Barristan told Dany that Rhaegar’s oldest and truest friend was Arthur Dayne (SoS, pg. 90), so he was probably just the man to trust with such a secret.

The Kingsguard evidentally had an effect on Eddard. On GoT, pg. 502, just the sight of three men in white cloaks sends a chill through him.

Then there comes the curious matter of Lyanna’s death. From Eddard’s thoughts on GoT, pg. 43, we learn that she died of a fever, in a room that smelled of ‘blood and roses.’ Since the fighting took place outside the tower,. we can theorize that the blood came from Lyanna’s childbirth. We know the blood came from Lyanna, because on GoT, pg. 424, Eddard remembers ‘Lyanna in her bed of blood.’ Her bed of blood--the blood came from her, and blood is not usually the effect of a fever. And GRRM has been known to liken this term to birthing--on GoT, pg. 674, Mirri Maz Duur says she knows the secrets of the ‘bloody bed,’ meaning birthing.

c) “Promise Me, Ned”

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes.
---GoT, pg. 43

From the quote above, Eddard implies that his promise to Lyanna was to bury her at Winterfell. However, he recalls the quote throughout the book at the strangest times and places, suggesting that the promise meant something more. From above, the simple phrase ‘the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes’ suggests that the promise is something deeper--why should she be so scared about where she is buried? It has been suggested that what Eddard was really promising was to keep Jon’s identity a secret, and this can be supported by the manner in which he recalls Lyanna’s words.

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.
--GoT, pg. 116

This quote could be explained away by the fact that Eddard referred to Lyanna. But Robert killing Rhaegar doesn’t have much to do with anything if Ned promised to bury Lyanna at Winterfell. The quote fits better if Ned’s promise was concerning Jon, because it would fit with Robert’s hatred of Targaryens.

He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry’s audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.
---GoT, pg. 199

Now this is interesting. Why in the world would Eddard compare Sansa pleading for Lady’s life to Lyanna pleading to be buried in Winterfell--especially in the context of Robert’s hatred of Targaryens? This references makes absolutely no sense unless one accepts that Lyanna was pleading to keep Jon’s identity secret from Robert.

“I will,” Ned promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he made to Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.
--GoT, pg. 380

Again, this doesn’t make much sense in the context of Ned promising Lyanna to bury her at Winterfell. What price would he had to have paid to do this? If the promise concerned Jon, on the other hand, the quote makes sense. Ned has certainly paid a price by claiming Jon is his own son, especially with Catelyn.

The next quote comes from Eddard’s dream:

“Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.
--GoT, pg. 501

Eddard seems to have a lot of violent and troubled dreams concerning his promise to Lyanna. Why? It seems unnatural for him to place that much importance on simply burying her at Winterfell.

“Eat the bastard. Don’t care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned.” {said Robert.}

“I promise.” “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s voice echoed.
--GoT, pg. 505

This quote can simply be attributed to Eddard likening his promises to Robert on his deathbed to his promises to Lyanna on hers.

So with so many references to these promises, if seems like they were very important in Eddard’s mind; certainly more important than ensuring Lyanna was buried at Winterfell. They could very well be about Jon; if not, then of something of equal importance.

d) Blue Winter Roses

Along with ‘Promise me, Ned,’ Eddard also remembers blue roses at the strangest times. This can also be attribuited to Lyanna. She loved the smell of blue winter roses. (GoT, pg. 631) And the crown for the queen of love and beauty that Rhaegar tossed her was made of the flower. (GoT, pg. 631). Of course, Ned’s references to blue roses could just be due to his grief over how Lyanna died, but they could mean something more...

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned...Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black...”I bring her flowers when I can,”{Ned} said. “Lyanna was...fond of flowers.”
--GoT, pg. 43

The room in which Lyanna died smelled of roses, and she held some in her hand. Interesting. If Rhaegar knew that they were her favorite flower, he could have been trying to make her happy.

As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.
--GoT, pg. 425

Her {Cersei’s} eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”
Ned thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.
--GoT, pg. 480

“Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.
--GoT, pg. 501

The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.
--CoK, pg. 809

The real clincher comes with a vision Dany has in the House of the Undying.

A blue flower grew from a ***** in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.
--CoK, pg. 707

This quote strongly implies that Lyanna’s blue roses have something to do with the Wall (the ‘wall of ice’) This makes perfect sense because Jon, the product of Lyanna and her blue roses, is on the Wall.

One more final clue comes on CoK, pg. 746. Ygritte tells Jon a story about Bael the Bard. Bael picked a blue winter rose from Winterfell’s greenhouse unasked; a year later, he returned the son he fathered off Lord Stark’s daughter in payment for that rose. Since Rhaegar is known to be a great fan of music and songs, it is likely that he heard this story, and was fulfilling his romantic outlook on life by imitating Bael in the blue roses.

e) Lies, Broken Promises and Troubled Dreams

Since Eddard is described as an honorable man, one would think that he would feel guilty over the fact that he is lying to the world about Jon’s parentage. Well, he certainly feels guilty over something. Throughout the book, there are numerous references to the fact that he feels guilty for telling lies. These lies most likely have to do with Jon or something as equally serious.

Troubled sleep was no stranger to him {Ned}. He had lived lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.
--GoT, pg. 115

Since Jon is fourteen years old at this time, this strongly implies that Eddard’s fourteen years of lies are about Jon. The fact that they still haunt him at night fits in with Eddard’s dreams about blue roses and the Tower of Joy.

“She whined and looked at me and a felt so ‘shamed, but it was right, wasn’t it? The queen would have killed her.”

“It was right,” her father said. “And even the lie was...not without honor.”
--GoT, pg. 222

Eddard could easily be comparing Arya’s honorable lies to his own.

Some secrets are safer kept hidden. So secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. {Ned thought}
--GoT, pg. 357

This seems to imply that Ned has secrets of his own.

The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned’s head, warm and relentless as old guilts.
--GoT, pg. 379

The deceit made him {Ned} feel soiled. The lies we tell for love, he thought. May the gods forgive me.
--GoT, pg. 504

All these above quotes seen to suggest that Eddard has been lying about something for fourteen years. If not Jon, then what? There are probably other options, but Jon seems the most likely at this point.

f) Thoughts Concerning Jon

Most of the above quotes had to do with pointing evidence at Lyanna or Rhaegar. However, a sizeable number of quotes do suggest that Jon is mroe than just a normal bastard boy. For one, Eddard never seems to refer to Jon as his son, which is interesting.

“Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know.”
--GoT, pg. 65

Note that Eddard calls Jon ‘my blood,’ not ‘my son.’ This could be a hint that Eddard is still trying to tell as much truth as possible, because Jon is still his nephew if he is Lyanna’s son. And then, on GoT, pg. 486:

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body. He did not know. He prayed he never would.

Eddard lists off all his children in his mind, but conviently does not include Jon on the list. Interesting.

Eddard then has some more thoughts about Jon while locked in a cell underneath the Red Keep, waiting to die.

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him...
--GoT, pg. 635

Why, out of all his children, does Eddard want to talk with Jon before he dies? Could he finally want to reveal to him the secret of his parentage? Of course, Ned could be wanting to do this even if Jon’s mother was someone else, so this quote does not just apply to the Lyanna-Rhaegar scenario. Two pages earlier, Eddard asks Varys if he would deliver a letter. Perhaps Eddard wanted to put the secret of Jon’s mother in that letter for Varys to deliver.

Bran has an interesting dream which may add to the evidence.

“I dreamed about the crow last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.”

“And why was that?” Luwin peered through his tube.
“It was something to do about Jon, I think.” The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so that any of the other crow dreams.
--GoT, pg. 730

In the series thus far, most characters’ dreams have hinted at being prophetic or somewhat magical. The fact that Eddard was trying to tell Bran that there was something about Jon in the crypts may suggest that a secret about Jon is down there--near Lyanna’s statue, maybe?

Jon has a similar dream:

“I’m walking down this long empty hall...opening doors, shouting names...the castle is always empty...the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run, then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It’s black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don’t want to. I’m afraid of what might be waiting for me...I scream that I’m not a Stark, that this isn’t my place, but it’s no good, I have to go down anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream...that’s when I always wake.”
--GoT, pg. 267

This also seems to hint that Jon also has some sort of destiny in the crypts--again, perhaps his heritage? One more thing seems to hint at Jon’s parents:

“King,” croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the air to land on Mormont’s shoulder. “King,” it said again, strutting back and forth.
“He likes that word,” Jon said, smiling.
“An easy word to say. An easy word to like.”

“King,” the bird said again.
“I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.”
“The realm has three kings already, and that’s two too many for my liking.” Mormont striked the raven under the beak with his finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

--CoK, pg. 105

This could be the random spoutings of a raven. Or it could be a subtle clue that Jon, as the only surviving son of Rhaegar, would be the king of Westeros if the Targaryens still reigned.

Yet another possible clue comes in the physical appearances of the characters. It has been stated numerous times throughout the series that Jon and Arya are similar in physical appearance. Arya is also often compared to Lyanna, such as Eddard's statement on GoT, pg. 221. Through logical sequence, Lyanna is indirectly being compared to Jon. (Lyanna looks like Arya and Arya looks like Jon.)

As one last tidbit of evidence, it can be said that if Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, it fits with the series name ‘A Song of Ice and Fire.’ Jon seems to be shaping as the main character, and it woudl fit the series title if his parents were Rhaegar (fire) and Lyanna (ice).

3) But Why?

The way most characters describe it, Rhaegar seems to be a completely honest and honorable man. So why would he betray his wife and run off with Lyanna to father a legitmate child?

This is a question that cannot fully be answered, except for one vision that Dany has in the House of the Undying on CoK, pg. 527. In this scene, Dany sees Rhaegar and Elia standing over their newborn son Aegon. Rhaegar says that Aegon is the ‘prince that was promised,’ and his is the ‘song of ice and fire.’ Then, he enigmatically adds, ‘There must be one more...the dragon has three heads.’ The first two heads are evidently Rhaenys and Aegon. It’s possible that in whatever prophecy Rhaegar read, he thought that he needed to father a child off a Stark to produce the third head and the ‘song of ice and fire.’ Without further information we cannot speculate more, though. For a more indepth discussion of the topic, see the ‘Who is Azor Ahai reborn? Is he the same person as the Prince Who Was Promised?’ topic.



I think this is an older theory, but I like it.

Thoughts ?

Also, Jon isnt dead, suck it.

#2 Porn Shop Clerk

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 06:39 PM

yeah i believe that R+L=J

unless martin has decided to change it because everyone figured it out

#3 chris999


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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:49 AM

I think that R+L=J is almost certain... but I do think that there may be some other cool surprises in store for us when we find out more of what happened that day. The way it will be revealed will be a surprise too because it could come from anywhere. Bran could find out through the weir-wood-web, or howland could show up. Who knows, maybe Dayne or Hightower are still alive.

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:36 PM

the more interesting theory is that aerys targaryen + joanna lannister = tyrion lannister

#5 Kurb


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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:14 PM

the more interesting theory is that aerys targaryen + joanna lannister = tyrion lannister

gimme a link.

why would this be?

Where is all this old poo found?

*sigh* Im gunna have to re-read the books arent i :(

#6 Hugor Hill

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:23 PM

gimme a link.

why would this be?

Where is all this old poo found?

*sigh* Im gunna have to re-read the books arent i :(

A Dance With Dragons, page 577:

"Prince Aerys...as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord's right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the...the liberties your father took during the bedding."

That is Sir Barristan Selmy telling Daenerys about the feelings her father, Aerys, had for Tywin Lannister's wife Joanna, and Tyrion Lannister's mother. It suggests that Aerys lusted for her, and we all know that as Aerys descended into madness, he did as he pleased. We know too that there was no love lost between Tywin and Aerys, from things like how he made Jaime a member of the Kingsguard to spite Tywin.

Let us consider too how Tywin treats Tyrion. He has always grudged Tyrion for the death of his wife, but would not that pain be even sharper if he knew or suspected Tyrion wasn't his child? Granted, Tyrion looks like a Lannister with his blonde hair, but his mother was a Lannister cousin, so it's not unreasonable to assume his looks came from her. Tywin doesn't want Tyrion to inherit Casterly Rock, and the kicker: during the privy scene at the end of A Feast for Crows, Tywin tells Tyrion, "you're no son of mine."

Am I crazy and just seeing something that isn't there? Isn't Tywin just giving Tyrion one last snipe before his death? Possibly, but this is a theory that's pretty widely talked about and as the series progresses we continue to see Targaryen blood reappear (Young Griff, anyone?). If you want to attack it, I probably won't defend it - it is kind of out there.

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:28 PM

aerys had a thing for joanna, tywin sent joanna back to casterly rock to have tyrion. speculation is that joanna lannister drank moon tea to kill aerys targaryen's rape baby and that's what deformed tyrion, and his deformity is what killed joanna lannister

two blue eyed parents pretty much cannot produce a child with one blue eye and one black eye

#8 Kevin Greene

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:13 PM

I haven't read the book.
Neiner, neiner.

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:21 PM

cuz you can't fuging read

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:50 AM

I've seen the first two seasons, and just started reading the first book. So far everything seems to be right in line with the show. So can I just skip to the book that picks up after season 2? I assume that would be the third one. I've noticed only minor differences in the reading so far, and all it seems to be is more descriptive. I guess I'm just asking if something important to the series has been left out of the first two seasons, and if I would be confused because of that when jumping to book 3.

#11 stankowalski


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Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:16 AM

I agree with the theory that Rhagar and Lysanna are Jon's parents. The only thing I have a problem with is how Ned let his wife treat him. Why didn't he just tell her the facts so he could keep his 'honor' and shut her up? Who knows maybe Jon would have had a somewhat better life for it (better as in not getting the dagger eyes from his step mom for 14 years.) Of course then it would have been harder to keep it a 'secret' from the reader, so I guess it's just a literary tool in this case.

And yeah I don't believe Jon is dead either.

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:43 AM

because if robert baratheon had ever found out, he would have had jon killed

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