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Game Of Thrones Grown Up Talk. Do Not Enter Unless You Have Finished All The Books

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#151 CarolinaCoolin

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:28 PM

Why? The mystery of his mother can be addressed without John Snow being alive. I think he is dead. If he comes back it will be as a white walker.

Some other thoughts. Maester Aemon is right about who Azor Ahai is and the smoke and salt that is referenced in AA's rebirth is not a metaphor but a location


Grrm said he will find out who is mom is. Hard to figure that out when you are dead. Unless there's gonna be a really lame afterlife scene. He's gotta come back

#152 teeray

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:12 PM

You don't come back as white walkers... you come back as wights...  ;)

as for the AA comment... are you referencing The Hound?
 

 

No although the Hound is my dark horse candidate.  The mystery surrounding John Snow's parents also makes him my second candidate.

 

But this is what I think

 

The prophecy as Melisandre puts it is "“When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt."

 

I think many readers read "born again" then think reborn, and equate that somehow with death.  So when the prophecy says that Azor Ahai shall be born again, I don't think that it means someone has to die and be reborn.  But in reality, someone only has to be born.  So instead of focusing on deaths, I was thinking about births.

 

That is why i think John Snow and the smoke rising from his wounds and the salt from Bowen Marsh's tears are just a misdirection.  It is just steam from his wounds and tears of sadness.  And also it is a death, not a birth.  But again John Snow is my second candidate so maybe it is the prophecy.

 

The first part of the prophecy "when the red star bleeds and darkness gathers", most people equate this with an event that has yet to come or is in the process of happening.  But perhaps it is an event that has already taken place.  Perhaps the event is a weather related event.  Ancient times used stars to try and predict the weather and some ancient communities also thought weather events were caused by the stars and planets themselves.  And of course "darkness gathering" could easily be construed as a reference to the darkness of a weather event.

 

Now the second part "Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt".  I think this is a place not a metaphor.  And there is one place in particular that fits that description.  Dragonstone. Dragonstone is a volcanic island off of Blackwater Bay.  It has the smoke of it's volcanoes and the salt of the sea.

 

That is why I think the Prince that was Promised isn't a prince but a princess.

 

Daenerys "Stormborn" Targaryen got that nickname because she was born during a great storm and was born on Dragonstone.

 

I think Azor Ahai has already been reborn, she just doesn't realize it yet.

 

Maester Aemon thinks he figured it out.  This is what he said to Sam in AFFC:

 

No one ever looked for a girl..It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar I thought … the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet.

 

What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame.

 

The language misled us all for a thousand years.

 

Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.

 

 

I think he is right, but RR Martin is pretty clever and it may be too obvious and the reveal not climatic enough.

RR Martin always trying to surprise his readers is why I think the Hound is the dark horse.

 

Also Aemon said before he died that the dragon must have three heads, so I imagine there will be more to this prophecy than we know now.



#153 teeray

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:45 PM

Grrm said he will find out who is mom is. Hard to figure that out when you are dead. Unless there's gonna be a really lame afterlife scene. He's gotta come back

 

If I recall correctly, RR Martin has only said that his parents will be revealed.  Not that John Snow will ever know who they are.



#154 Porn Shop Clerk

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:47 PM

azor ahai can't be a woman, that's just dumb

 

the prophecy says nothing about making delicious sammiches



#155 teeray

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:51 PM

azor ahai can't be a woman, that's just dumb

 

the prophecy says nothing about making delicious sammiches

 

Good point.  Drogon could probably toast that bread perfectly.



#156 rodeo

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 05:33 PM

If I recall correctly, RR Martin has only said that his parents will be revealed.  Not that John Snow will ever know who they are.

 

He said Jon will find out who they are.



#157 rodeo

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 05:36 PM

I just think the formula fits exactly what grrm likes to do. Brienne's chapter ends with her hanging, she shows up in the next book. Arya's chapter ends with her getting axed in the head, she shows up in the next book. Davos has his head and hands hung from the wall at White Harbor, he shows up in the next book.



#158 teeray

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 06:30 PM

He said Jon will find out who they are.

 

Maybe there is a quote I haven't seen but this is the only thing that I know of that he has said about it.

 

5- Will we know in time, with certainty, the identity of Jon Snow's parents (I don't believe Edric Dayne's tale)? Personally, I really hope he's Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, despite looking so much like Eddard.

 

Jon's parentage will be revealed eventually, yes.

 

 

http://www.westeros....Many_Questions2

 

I don't think he has ever said that Jon will know who his parents are, only that they will be revealed.

 

Having said that, what happened to him whether he be alive or dead I think will be the event that eventually gets the white walkers through the wall and into Westeros.



#159 Bronn

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:12 PM

I just think the formula fits exactly what grrm likes to do. Brienne's chapter ends with her hanging, she shows up in the next book. Arya's chapter ends with her getting axed in the head, she shows up in the next book. Davos has his head and hands hung from the wall at White Harbor, he shows up in the next book.

 

We also had a blind Arya, a dead Cat, a missing/presumed dead Benjen (if he is CH), and IIRC it seemed Tyrion was gone in the Blackwater AND when he fell into that disease causing water in ADWD.

I think that is why the Hound is still alive too (and is the gravedigger like you said), and Jon is probably still alive.

 



#160 Porn Shop Clerk

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:21 PM

"fade to black" rarely means death in literature

 

but i think the only PoV that has died and died in one of their own chapters is caitlin



#161 Bronn

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:35 PM

In the show this week, did anyone else take Tyrion's and Tywin's exchange about Tyrion being a Lannister come across anyone else as blatantly toying with the theory that Tyrion wasn't really a Lannister?

 

Also, have we ever had any evidence that Jaime and Cersei themselves aren't a product of a Targaryen affair? Could it be that all 3 are Targaryens?

This would totally open so many doors in the plot linkage it would be unreal.

 

I believe PSC has thought for a long time that Tyrion was half Targaryen... But what if Jaime and Cersei were too? It would explain the madness of Joffrey for starters (aside from the whole incest thing, of course).



#162 Bronn

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:45 PM

When Genna Lannister (Jaime and Cersei's aunt) said this:

 

Jaime, sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak...but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year.

 

Could she have been speaking literally?

 



#163 The Saltman

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:51 PM

I think you are way over thinking everything bronn.

#164 Bronn

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:59 PM

Ned Stark is alive! Don't you crush my dreams!



#165 Kurb

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 08:19 PM

Why? The mystery of his mother can be addressed without John Snow being alive. I think he is dead. If he comes back it will be as a white walker.

Some other thoughts. Maester Aemon is right about who Azor Ahai is and the smoke and salt that is referenced in AA's rebirth is not a metaphor but a location

Who did he say it was?

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