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Same Sex Couples' Suing NC


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#76 mav1234

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:33 AM

You have a point but not really at the same time. Religion breeds hate, turns people into bigots. A person who collects guns can live next door to a person who collect knives and they'll live in harmony for their entire life. How long will two neighbors last who have different religions before the hatred is too much to hold back?


Religion itself needs to be guided to turn people into bigots, I think, because religion by definition receives organized input on the matter. That is why I think that liberal Christians should focus a lot of their effort on working to fight the bigotry and hate within their church. Unfortunately, they aren't helped when "faithless" liberals pool them in with bigots intentionally or insult their belief systems specifically, call them hypocritical etc. I know many people who call themselves Christians who are also quite open minded, guided by reason etc... They just think that following most of the teachings of Jesus leads to a happier, better life. When I disagree, they don't assault me for it. But as I've become fond of saying in these threads... I guess I'm lucky for living in the northeast. (which is not to say there isn't bigotry here - there is)


And that is the problem, I have plenty of neighbors too but I do not label them by their religion or life style.


You said how long until two people of different religions can't live together - he was responding that his neighbors are of a vast array of faiths and they don't have any problems.

#77 MCP

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:38 AM

And that is the problem, I have plenty of neighbors too but I do not label them by their religion or life style.


Well, now your just really really reaching for any possible argument, because not everyone fits into your neat little cmpartmentalization, no matter how ridiculous. Knowing, and describing what they are, is not labeling them. That was for your benefit. My point was that none of us cares what the fug anyone else, doess, thinks, or believes, but I guess you probably missed that.

#78 NCstoner420

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:57 AM

Well, now your just really really reaching for any possible argument, because not everyone fits into your neat little cmpartmentalization, no matter how ridiculous. Knowing, and describing what they are, is not labeling them. That was for your benefit. My point was that none of us cares what the fug anyone else, doess, thinks, or believes, but I guess you probably missed that.


You used religion to label yourself how is that any different than using it to label your neighbors? I find it hard to believe that your street is made up this way but I can not prove you wrong so I will have to take what you say as the truth. From my experiences this is not how the rest of the world works so you should be grateful of where you live.

#79 Ccat

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:14 AM

Wake up. Everyone's experiences and perceptions of how the "world works" differ. I come from the same perception as MCP. I have really good friends that are atheists, Catholics, and Jews. Don't really have many Muslim friends, but I suppose thats probably because I don't know of any around in the small town that I am in.

As far as religion breeding hate, I would disagree. From my experience on "how the world works," people just hate each other. period. People that have truly accepted Christ as their savior have much less hate. Does it happen sometimes to people? Ofcourse. But I can honestly tell you, I don't hate anyone. I'm not even lying a bit about that either. Do I have "enemies?" I guess I might, although I usually get along really well with most people. But even with the people who don't like me and that I don't get along with real well, I just treat them with kindness when they are around, and they will usually respond kindly as well.

#80 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:45 AM

In my opinion, if you think that the Bible should dictate the laws of this country on a level of who can and can't receive legal recognition for their long-term relationship, you are pretty much a fundamentalist if only on that issue. I guess that might not be a popular opinion, but there it is.

Also, keep in mind that every time one of these things passes, more and more people wake up to how screwed up they are. We'll see if the ones up in November pass - I kinda suspect some actually won't this time around.


But there are plenty of voters who voted for the amendment who rarely set foot in a church. Like it or not, there are some people who just believe that gays getting married is wrong. And if you think about it in a historical context, societies that allowed it were exceedingly rare, regardless of their religious beliefs. Its going to take people some time to get use to the idea.

#81 mav1234

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 12:45 PM

You don't need to set foot in a church to be a fundamentalist.

Are you arguing that there are reasons not based in religion for prohibiting gay marriage?

#82 mav1234

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 12:49 PM

You used religion to label yourself how is that any different than using it to label your neighbors? I find it hard to believe that your street is made up this way but I can not prove you wrong so I will have to take what you say as the truth. From my experiences this is not how the rest of the world works so you should be grateful of where you live.


Such streets are really not as rare as you think. The area I grew up in was quite diverse, at least religiously, and there was no religious-based violence at all.

#83 MCP

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 02:24 PM

You used religion to label yourself how is that any different than using it to label your neighbors? I find it hard to believe that your street is made up this way but I can not prove you wrong so I will have to take what you say as the truth. From my experiences this is not how the rest of the world works so you should be grateful of where you live.


Once again, I gave a "best possible" description of my religious philosophy, which was kinda necessary, in order to respond to a statement you made.

I have found that it is very difficult for judgmental people, to believe that others are not judgmental, and can actually go about their lives peacefully, weather they agree on everything, or not.

#84 MadHatter

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 04:16 PM

fuging bible belt. I'd love to be in the northeast.


Well, for less than a hundred bucks, a greyhound bus ticket could be purchased in your name.


#85 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 05:23 PM

You don't need to set foot in a church to be a fundamentalist.

Are you arguing that there are reasons not based in religion for prohibiting gay marriage?


I am not arguing that it should be prohibited at all. I voted against the amendment. Just explaining my opinion on why the votes have went the way they have. The vote on the various amendments was as much cultural as it was religious imo. Of course, in many ways the two are tied together. But in cultural history, there are plenty of example of same sex unions, especially between males. But there is very little history of marriage between same sex partners, with or without christianity. Its been outside the cultural norm for many many hundreds and thousands of years, and its going to take a while for peoples attitudes to change. Actually, imo its happening far faster than I would have thought.

Fwiw, I have never met a person who is a fundamentalist who didn't go to church on a regular basis. I suppose there are some, but I doubt there are many.

#86 mav1234

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 05:39 PM

I am curious what cultural aspect of the vote you do not think was motivated by religion, though perhaps that third sentence was meant to suggest you don't - in which case, I agree. Religion is tightly interwoven with culture quite often, but I think that the only reasons people cite to ban gay marriage all have their roots in intolerance based on religion.

How exactly do you define fundamentalist? I realize in the context of these conversations, the definitions are not always the same.

To me, a fundamentalist is one who adheres to some sort of strict religious doctrine and takes action in order to defend or force that religious doctrine on others; in that regard, I think that individuals who voted for the gay marriage amendment were basically fundamentalists, at least when it came to a specific set of doctrines related to interpretation of what marriage should be. I generally think of them as quite reactionary too in that usually they seem to be a direct response to a perceived cultural change.

There are fundamentalists who do not go to church, because some think that the churches have deviated too far from whatever code they think is embodied by their faith or what not.

#87 lightsout

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 06:59 PM

Well has far as Christianity goes our doctrines condem hate. So others who are claiming to be Christians but acting in a non Christian way should define me? Does that make sense? Why not generalize all races? There are "white trash" caucasions so therefore we should all be considered so? Are blacks all "thugs" because of the ones who are? Do you know the figures of how many claim to Christian to the the number of people who attend Church every Sunday and Wednesday? Their is a huge margin of error there. By The Book your not a christian because you go to church. You have to be saved and if your saved you will be at church when church happens and you will exhibit Christ like values. If you see someone not behaving this way chances are they are Christian in name only.
You may be athiest but if the Devil was real do you think he would not want a great many deal of "decievers" out there to smear the Christian name? Don't even get me started on "placebo" Christians which are the ones whom you all have a problem with. To understand this you have to read the book and find god yourself.

I will not defy Jesus before you all, because he will defy me before God if I do.


Thats all I got, sorry for bad grammer I'm not a writer, God bless



Since this is the only response since my last response that ISN'T just a pure shot at me filled with name-calling or a criticism of me on a personal level, I will respond.

Your comparison to me grouping willful subscribers under the title of "Christian" to grouping all races is not a fair comparison. People can choose their religions, not their race. See, there are 30,000 different sects of Christianity alone, all with differences that range from how salvation is achieved, what exactly hell is, etc. There are the 3 main sects of Islam that I know about as well (I don't know as much about Islam, but I am sure those 3 main sects are broken down further into specific denominations as well). I have accepted (I believe in this thread, but it may be in the "village idiots thread") that the moderates ARE NOT like the fundies. I understand the difference. The problem is when we jump on the fundies, some moderates get pissy about it. mav and I discussed this a bit. If you're going to call all white people white trash or all black people thugs, that is simply not fair. Just as if I call all moderates fundies or all fundies moderates. It is demonstrably false. However, calling all hardcore Star Wars fans nerds...well, they fit the bill. Calling all religious fundamentalists a harm to society...well, they fit the bill. If you're not a fundamentalist, you shouldn't be concerned. Mav put it well (again, may be in the other thread), and I am paraphrasing here, any moderate who gets bent out of shape when fundies are criticized is probably just a fundie who doesn't want to accept the title. Again, that's a rough paraphrased statement, but I believe I got it basically right.


Differentiating "true" Christians is tough. The way you define a "true" Christian may be (and I assure you, is) different than how somebody else defines it. To me, anybody who tells me they are a Christian and believe in the Christian concept of god, well, I believe them. Just like if somebody tells me that they believe I'm a pretty good guy, well, I believe them. Just like if somebody tells me they believe I'm a pretty shitty guy. Well, I believe them. I have no reason to not believe them. If they say they are Christian but also believe in the teachings of Islam....well, I no longer believe them. They are contradicting both beliefs at that point. Do you see my point here (I realize I went on a bit of tangent here)? It's just a No True Scotsman fallacy.

#88 lightsout

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 07:01 PM

Well, for less than a hundred bucks, a greyhound bus ticket could be purchased in your name.


College student. :(

#89 Ccat

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 07:04 PM

My response wasn't a shot at you or filled with name-calling

#90 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 07:05 PM

Guess I am not explaining myself clearly. At one point in time, drinking was considered ok by the vast majority of religious folks, in part because of the necessity since many water supplies weren't very clean and there weren't many alternatives. As clean water became more plentiful, cultural attitudes towards drinking changed, and religious beliefs reflected that change. Eventually such changes led to follies such as prohibition. Another example would be cultural attitudes towards slavery, which religion reflected, in both the North and the South. IMO, cultural attitudes towards gays and gay marriage are changing, and eventually so will religious attitudes. But they will take a while to catch up. Of course, religion also influences culture and there are many examples of that, but I don't have time to write a point paper. :)

Regarding what you said about fundamentalist, I am sure there are a few of those you described. But imo, the vast majority of fundamentalist probably go to a church they like, that preaches against a lot of things, not just gay marriage (but abortion, drinking, strip clubs etc...)

Fwiw I bet you could walk into just about any beer joint in NC, and the majority of them would be people who had no particular fundamentalist beliefs regarding those other issues, but would be against gay marriage.


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