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We can cut Deangelo next year and owe him nothing, no cap hits,nothing!


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Posted

It seems like no matter how many times we discuss how contracts are handled cap-wise, no one gets any wiser.

Here are the facts once again:

  • Bonus money is always spread out over the length of the contract
  • It doesn't matter if you pay the bonus up front, or over several years, it always is divided over the contract length
  • We can cut DWill at any time, but the bonus charge allocated to future years all gets crammed into the year we cut him
  • DWill's contract is back-loaded, not front-loaded
  • When people talk about the later years not being guaranteed, they are talking about salary. You can dump the salary. You cannot dump the cap hit from bonuses.

This stuff is not that hard to understand. If we cut DWill after this season, JR will be saving himself some cash, but the team will have to absorb a $9.6 million hit to the cap. That isn't going to happen.

Exactly.

The bonus money paid up front would accelerate and be a cap hit in the year you let him go.

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Posted

I used to try and follow the cap structure stuff closely. These days I don't think about it near as much.

The NFLPA no longer making player's annual salaries easily accessible on their site probably dimmed my enthusiasm a lot.

Yeah, I'm with you.I haven't had a math class since 1977, so I try not to get to worked up about salaries and stuff. I think our FO does an outstanding job of working all that sort of thing out, so I'll trust them to do it. If there's a will (no pun intended) and a way, they'll find it.

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Posted

This thread is so full of fail

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If you get rid of Double Trouble, the only thing you're left with is Trouble...

Keep in mind that the 'magic number' of 30 is based less on AGE, and more on the MILEAGE that the typical 30 year old RB has on his wheels... In that aspect, DWill is a relatively young 29... It is reasonable to expect that the reduced carries will serve to extend his 'effective' career...

As far as his cap hit, there are so many dynamics that can (and will) change between now and the time it will matter, that debating it now is simply something you do for your own amusement...

Bottom line is simple... If he is contributing at a high level in 3 years, the signing was worth it... If he's not contributing, he will be cut, and cost the team at most (assuming at this point 2 of the 5 years of his signing bonus are done) 9.6M (which also assumes we cut him at the end of this season, which isn't likely to happen)...

I'd actually venture to say that DWill's contract is perhaps not the 'worst' contract the team currently has...

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Just to clarify, the Williams contract includes $21 million guaranteed, A $16 million signing bonus, and the 2011 base salary ($5 million). The signing bonus pro-rated over the 5 years at $3.2 million per year against the cap hit. If Williams is released next offseason, the $9.6 million in signing bonus cap hits would count against the 2013 cap hit. If they release him after June 1, 2013, they can spread that $9.6 million out over 2 years of cap hits.

Mike, Spotrac

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Posted

If you get rid of Double Trouble, the only thing you're left with is Trouble...

Keep in mind that the 'magic number' of 30 is based less on AGE, and more on the MILEAGE that the typical 30 year old RB has on his wheels... In that aspect, DWill is a relatively young 29... It is reasonable to expect that the reduced carries will serve to extend his 'effective' career...

As far as his cap hit, there are so many dynamics that can (and will) change between now and the time it will matter, that debating it now is simply something you do for your own amusement...

Bottom line is simple... If he is contributing at a high level in 3 years, the signing was worth it... If he's not contributing, he will be cut, and cost the team at most (assuming at this point 2 of the 5 years of his signing bonus are done) 9.6M (which also assumes we cut him at the end of this season, which isn't likely to happen)...

I'd actually venture to say that DWill's contract is perhaps not the 'worst' contract the team currently has...

He has miles ..... and 30 is 30.

What contract is the worst? Situation matters....which is why grossly overpaying CJ makes more sense and overpaying Williams makes much less.

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Posted

Anyone who think Williams has low mileage....

Should add up his college+pro touches......and compare that number to another RB. His college mileage was absurd vs most NFL RBs.

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In essense..no one disagrees that Williams got an extreme premium for a dual back system HB. You cannot look at post Cam's season to make this judgement or you will easily say this contract is stupid.

After the Clausen season..Williams, is a free agent with significant interest from the Dolphins. Rookie Cam was drafted.

Cam was probally expected to have more a Mark Sanchez year 1 (possibly slightly better) type season than an Arron Rogers yr 1 starter season. A heavy reliance on the run game was expected and having Double Trouble could ease the rookie into year two when he will start to "get it" with a full camp and begining to understand a play call(sarcasam on understanding playcalls)

With the shortened seson, promises to veterans that they "will be taken care of" for their patience on the two years prior bc of the coming lock out..Having veteran Offensive players was at a premium.

Q: what would you say if Cam's season was more like Christian Ponder's and we let Williams go to Miami in free agency?

A: We might be welcoming our new rookie HB Trent Richardson to the Panthers right now.

Cam was Cam and it changed everything to where the HBs were a luxury and lessened the burden while giving Cam a ton of extended reps.

Cam's season makes the DeAngelo contract looked upon as overkill but retaining players on the worst team in the NFL takes some cash. No one wants to be with the ugly girl at the Prom.

IMO, DeAngelo, CJ, Beason, Td's contracts are also impact contracts that give the players on other teams some notice that the Panther's take care of their players to possibly entice some targeted impact free agents in the future.

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He has miles ..... and 30 is 30.

What contract is the worst? Situation matters....which is why grossly overpaying CJ makes more sense and overpaying Williams makes much less.

30 is not the kiss of death... The situation is not black and white, as you're implying...

Emmitt Smith put up over 1200 yards at age 31 and nearly 1000 yards with 9 TDs at age 35...

Ricky Watters put up nearly 1900 total yards (1242 on the ground) at 31...

Curtis Martin rushed for 1700 yards and a dozen TD's at 31...

Check out the stats for pounder John Riggins after 30...

Priest Holmes had a hell of a year at 30...

Other notable post-30 RB successes: Fred Jackson, Fred Taylor, Warrick Dunn, Corey Dillon to name a few...

Now, of course there are many, many examples of RB's that saw STEEP decline after their 30th... But it's not a 'rule'... And the amount of carries DO matter...

As for the miles on DWills tires, he has less than 1000 career carries... All of the RB's I have mentioned had well north of twice as many carries as Williams, and in some cases as many as 4x the number by the same points in their careers...

In regards to which contract is worse, that's certainly debatable based on my perspective vs yours vs everybody elses... It's an unwinnable debate, and certainly subject to perception...

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Posted

In essense..no one disagrees that Williams got an extreme premium for a dual back system HB. You cannot look at post Cam's season to make this judgement or you will easily say this contract is stupid.

After the Clausen season..Williams, is a free agent with significant interest from the Dolphins. Rookie Cam was drafted.

Cam was probally expected to have more a Mark Sanchez year 1 (possibly slightly better) type season than an Arron Rogers yr 1 starter season. A heavy reliance on the run game was expected and having Double Trouble could ease the rookie into year two when he will start to "get it" with a full camp and begining to understand a play call(sarcasam on understanding playcalls)

With the shortened seson, promises to veterans that they "will be taken care of" for their patience on the two years prior bc of the coming lock out..Having veteran Offensive players was at a premium.

Q: what would you say if Cam's season was more like Christian Ponder's and we let Williams go to Miami in free agency?

A: We might be welcoming our new rookie HB Trent Richardson to the Panthers right now.

Cam was Cam and it changed everything to where the HBs were a luxury and lessened the burden while giving Cam a ton of extended reps.

Cam's season makes the DeAngelo contract looked upon as overkill but retaining players on the worst team in the NFL takes some cash. No one wants to be with the ugly girl at the Prom.

IMO, DeAngelo, CJ, Beason, Td's contracts are also impact contracts that give the players on other teams some notice that the Panther's take care of their players to possibly entice some targeted impact free agents in the future.

This is a pretty big deal actually. When was the last time there was a contract dispute or hold out in Carolina? I can't remember (Peppers wasn't a dispute, he flat out did not want to play here). You play for the Panthers, you perform and you make what you deserve. Mike Tolbert is only the beginning, more and more role players are going to be coming to Carolina in the coming years for reduced deals.

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This is a pretty big deal actually. When was the last time there was a contract dispute or hold out in Carolina? I can't remember (Peppers wasn't a dispute, he flat out did not want to play here). You play for the Panthers, you perform and you make what you deserve. Mike Tolbert is only the beginning, more and more role players are going to be coming to Carolina in the coming years for reduced deals.

Well said.

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30 is not the kiss of death... The situation is not black and white, as you're implying...

Emmitt Smith put up over 1200 yards at age 31 and nearly 1000 yards with 9 TDs at age 35...

Ricky Watters put up nearly 1900 total yards (1242 on the ground) at 31...

Curtis Martin rushed for 1700 yards and a dozen TD's at 31...

Check out the stats for pounder John Riggins after 30...

Priest Holmes had a hell of a year at 30...

Other notable post-30 RB successes: Fred Jackson, Fred Taylor, Warrick Dunn, Corey Dillon to name a few...

Now, of course there are many, many examples of RB's that saw STEEP decline after their 30th... But it's not a 'rule'... And the amount of carries DO matter...

As for the miles on DWills tires, he has less than 1000 career carries... All of the RB's I have mentioned had well north of twice as many carries as Williams, and in some cases as many as 4x the number by the same points in their careers...

In regards to which contract is worse, that's certainly debatable based on my perspective vs yours vs everybody elses... It's an unwinnable debate, and certainly subject to perception...

Not the kiss of death...but 30 will always be 30 to a degree. Playing with fire. With Cam and Stewart why play with fire?

And like said look at his college + pro touches vs other RB. Williams had 1000+ in college....most RBs see half or less heading in to the NFL.

Williams is great though...he would be well worth the deal we gave him to LOTS of teams. That is what I don't think so many understand abouty stance....the emphasis on situation

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