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We can cut Deangelo next year and owe him nothing, no cap hits,nothing!

#Hurneymagic!!

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#31 carpanfan96

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:48 AM

Full breakdown of his contract bonus money (Signing bonus)


21 million dollar signing bonus - 5 million of that in guaranteed salary from his base salary this season.

The cap hit breaks down to 3.2 million per season.

If he was cut now the team would be hit with a massive 17.8 million cap hit.

If he's cut after this season, the cap hit would be 9.6 million (He's due to make 4.75 next season in base, with a cap hit of 7.95)

So the team would lose almost 2 million dollars in cap space by cutting him before next season.


The following season the cap hit moves down to 6.4 Million dollars, his base salary is 5.75 million with a total hit of 8.95 million. The team would save money, but only 2.5 million by cutting him that season.


Now we are down to the final year of his contract and the team would save 6.75 million by cutting him, but would still take a hit of 3.2 million on the season.



So to recap, cutting Williams now = really, really bad.

Cutting Williams next season = pretty bad
Cutting Williams in 2014-2015 = saves the team a small amount of money.
Cutting Williams in 2015-16 = saves the team a fair share of cap room.



Realistically Williams is protected from being cut till at least the 2014-2015 season, but most likely he'll get cut or restructured entering the final year of his deal in the 2015-2016 season.

#32 nosuchthingasapanther

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:12 AM

i'm not sure i understand the excitement over this info.

outside of it giving more leverage to the front office to force williams to restructure/extend his contract after this season, the damage has already been done.

unless he just falls flat on his face, or gets bit by the injury bug...why cut him?




#33 Panthro

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:36 AM

Who gives a fug about this stuff? It's not our money and it's not our job. I trust the people we have in charge, they do a very good job.

fans are stock holders

and 3 out of 10 winning seasons is not a very good job

If I met my sales quota 3 out of 10 years I'd be unemployed

#34 csx

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:52 AM

My understanding of how a signing bonus is applied to the cap.

It's payed up front but pro-rated over the life of the contract in terms of cap hit. If you cut the player before the terms of the contract then the left over pro-rated years count immediately (with some variables but basically).

The earlier in the contract you cut a player with a pro-rated bonus the more it will affect the cap of the year they are cut but there will always be a cap implication of cutting a player with a signing bonus.

Is this generally correct?


I don't want to and don't think he will ever be cut, but I don't think he should have ever been signed to the contract that he was.....but I've said this a ton and sound like a broken record.

It's not hate for him or worrying about somebody elses money, just a fan who questions a decision made by his team.

#35 CatMan72

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:59 AM

Now I wonder why Hurney would have setup the contract that way? Hmmmmm

#36 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 07:41 AM

Stewart will be a starting in 2013 and I think Williams will be traded for a mid round pick. Stewart is an elite talent and you cannot let him go. Williams will be 30 and past his prime. Easy decision to make.

We wont tag Stewart and have Williams at the same time... Paying almost $25 million for 3 RBs is insane. Especially with Cam Newton under center.


Williams is untradeable at 30 with a big contract

#37 MadHatter

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 07:44 AM

It seems like no matter how many times we discuss how contracts are handled cap-wise, no one gets any wiser.

Here are the facts once again:

  • Bonus money is always spread out over the length of the contract
  • It doesn't matter if you pay the bonus up front, or over several years, it always is divided over the contract length
  • We can cut DWill at any time, but the bonus charge allocated to future years all gets crammed into the year we cut him
  • DWill's contract is back-loaded, not front-loaded
  • When people talk about the later years not being guaranteed, they are talking about salary. You can dump the salary. You cannot dump the cap hit from bonuses.
This stuff is not that hard to understand. If we cut DWill after this season, JR will be saving himself some cash, but the team will have to absorb a $9.6 million hit to the cap. That isn't going to happen.




Exactly.

The bonus money paid up front would accelerate and be a cap hit in the year you let him go.

#38 Cape Fear Cat

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 07:48 AM

I used to try and follow the cap structure stuff closely. These days I don't think about it near as much.

The NFLPA no longer making player's annual salaries easily accessible on their site probably dimmed my enthusiasm a lot.


Yeah, I'm with you.I haven't had a math class since 1977, so I try not to get to worked up about salaries and stuff. I think our FO does an outstanding job of working all that sort of thing out, so I'll trust them to do it. If there's a will (no pun intended) and a way, they'll find it.

#39 Leeroy Jenkins PhD

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 08:37 AM

This thread is so full of fail

#40 NanceUSMC

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:38 AM

If you get rid of Double Trouble, the only thing you're left with is Trouble...

Keep in mind that the 'magic number' of 30 is based less on AGE, and more on the MILEAGE that the typical 30 year old RB has on his wheels... In that aspect, DWill is a relatively young 29... It is reasonable to expect that the reduced carries will serve to extend his 'effective' career...

As far as his cap hit, there are so many dynamics that can (and will) change between now and the time it will matter, that debating it now is simply something you do for your own amusement...

Bottom line is simple... If he is contributing at a high level in 3 years, the signing was worth it... If he's not contributing, he will be cut, and cost the team at most (assuming at this point 2 of the 5 years of his signing bonus are done) 9.6M (which also assumes we cut him at the end of this season, which isn't likely to happen)...

I'd actually venture to say that DWill's contract is perhaps not the 'worst' contract the team currently has...

#41 ginnitti

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:43 AM

Just to clarify, the Williams contract includes $21 million guaranteed, A $16 million signing bonus, and the 2011 base salary ($5 million). The signing bonus pro-rated over the 5 years at $3.2 million per year against the cap hit. If Williams is released next offseason, the $9.6 million in signing bonus cap hits would count against the 2013 cap hit. If they release him after June 1, 2013, they can spread that $9.6 million out over 2 years of cap hits.

Mike, Spotrac


#42 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:46 AM

If you get rid of Double Trouble, the only thing you're left with is Trouble...

Keep in mind that the 'magic number' of 30 is based less on AGE, and more on the MILEAGE that the typical 30 year old RB has on his wheels... In that aspect, DWill is a relatively young 29... It is reasonable to expect that the reduced carries will serve to extend his 'effective' career...

As far as his cap hit, there are so many dynamics that can (and will) change between now and the time it will matter, that debating it now is simply something you do for your own amusement...

Bottom line is simple... If he is contributing at a high level in 3 years, the signing was worth it... If he's not contributing, he will be cut, and cost the team at most (assuming at this point 2 of the 5 years of his signing bonus are done) 9.6M (which also assumes we cut him at the end of this season, which isn't likely to happen)...

I'd actually venture to say that DWill's contract is perhaps not the 'worst' contract the team currently has...


He has miles ..... and 30 is 30.

What contract is the worst? Situation matters....which is why grossly overpaying CJ makes more sense and overpaying Williams makes much less.

#43 DeAngelo's #1 Fan(CRA)

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:59 AM

Anyone who think Williams has low mileage....

Should add up his college+pro touches......and compare that number to another RB. His college mileage was absurd vs most NFL RBs.

#44 TANTRIC-NINJA

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 10:24 AM

In essense..no one disagrees that Williams got an extreme premium for a dual back system HB. You cannot look at post Cam's season to make this judgement or you will easily say this contract is stupid.

After the Clausen season..Williams, is a free agent with significant interest from the Dolphins. Rookie Cam was drafted.

Cam was probally expected to have more a Mark Sanchez year 1 (possibly slightly better) type season than an Arron Rogers yr 1 starter season. A heavy reliance on the run game was expected and having Double Trouble could ease the rookie into year two when he will start to "get it" with a full camp and begining to understand a play call(sarcasam on understanding playcalls)

With the shortened seson, promises to veterans that they "will be taken care of" for their patience on the two years prior bc of the coming lock out..Having veteran Offensive players was at a premium.

Q: what would you say if Cam's season was more like Christian Ponder's and we let Williams go to Miami in free agency?

A: We might be welcoming our new rookie HB Trent Richardson to the Panthers right now.

Cam was Cam and it changed everything to where the HBs were a luxury and lessened the burden while giving Cam a ton of extended reps.

Cam's season makes the DeAngelo contract looked upon as overkill but retaining players on the worst team in the NFL takes some cash. No one wants to be with the ugly girl at the Prom.


IMO, DeAngelo, CJ, Beason, Td's contracts are also impact contracts that give the players on other teams some notice that the Panther's take care of their players to possibly entice some targeted impact free agents in the future.

#45 NanceUSMC

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 10:38 AM

He has miles ..... and 30 is 30.

What contract is the worst? Situation matters....which is why grossly overpaying CJ makes more sense and overpaying Williams makes much less.


30 is not the kiss of death... The situation is not black and white, as you're implying...

Emmitt Smith put up over 1200 yards at age 31 and nearly 1000 yards with 9 TDs at age 35...

Ricky Watters put up nearly 1900 total yards (1242 on the ground) at 31...

Curtis Martin rushed for 1700 yards and a dozen TD's at 31...

Check out the stats for pounder John Riggins after 30...

Priest Holmes had a hell of a year at 30...

Other notable post-30 RB successes: Fred Jackson, Fred Taylor, Warrick Dunn, Corey Dillon to name a few...

Now, of course there are many, many examples of RB's that saw STEEP decline after their 30th... But it's not a 'rule'... And the amount of carries DO matter...

As for the miles on DWills tires, he has less than 1000 career carries... All of the RB's I have mentioned had well north of twice as many carries as Williams, and in some cases as many as 4x the number by the same points in their careers...

In regards to which contract is worse, that's certainly debatable based on my perspective vs yours vs everybody elses... It's an unwinnable debate, and certainly subject to perception...


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