86 replies to this topic

[TANTRIC-NINJA]

I think the addition of Tolbert means more of the same.....shotgun and spread option looks. Tolbert despite the FB billing fits perfectly into letting Cam work his spread option and shotgun looks (pass protector and between the tackles running).

Williams fits a more traditional offense with a QB lined up under center.... and a FB leading the way. Yeah, Tolbert could do that.....but Cam is by far the most important player on the field and the offense is being built around him.....not Williams.

We saw a big step in the game geared offense an away from the one Williams would thrive in.....I see no reason why that won't continue. Tolbert IMO is here to pass protect, recieve....and goaline. Blocking for Williams some just bc Carolina simply is forced to get Williams touches but the shift already started

I agree 100% with your assesment of Tolbert's Role but i think the shift will really be seen after this season. D Will did have some poor pass protect moments last season early on and I think it affected his carries. He improved toward the end of the season and finally got the offense.

I see Tolbert used more as h-back weapon in 2011 that will line up in non traditional spots on motion plays..fb screens..TE screens..great pass blocker and blocking on WR and HB screens...so the screen keys can happen on both sides when the ball is hiked (ok maybe not)

I was just saying that Williams rushing attempts should be higher this season compared to last just bc Cam may get less run attempts.

It does not mean that the team is deviating from the offense being based around Newton.

i just do not see how you can still run Cam as much as last season when he may get the richest contract in the NFL in two seasons..he will still run bc that is the major X factor in the offense but I see Chud using the threat of Cam running to bait plays this season as a counter to all the "Film Study" all DC's are doing in the NFC South...thus Williams still retaining his value to the team in 2011.

I can see Dwill's role increasing this season but anticipate a contract restructure, trade or possible release in 2012.

Tolbert and HB 3 to fill dwill's role..with Stew resigned and taking more of a feature role...65-35 (JStew-Tolbert)

Either way its going to be awesome to see this offense.....if only Williams can improve his pass catching on screens!!! Its like Fox coached him out of that ability that was a strength in college and his rookie season.

[Pantherman]

You kidding me! Some people just think because Dwill will turn 30 this year that he will automatically going down hill after that. Some people need to get real. Dwill still has a few more years in him before he really starts slowing down. Hell Smith is like 32 right now and he is still going full speed. Age ain't always the case for RBs slowing down. Age is just one of the factors. Injuries is another thing. Which Dwill has not had any major injury yet. So Dwill is fine. There is no need to get rid of him after this season.

[panthers55]

He has miles ..... and 30 is 30.

What contract is the worst? Situation matters....which is why grossly overpaying CJ makes more sense and overpaying Williams makes much less.

Actually thirty isn't the big issue you make it out to be. Plus the data on how long players can play at a high level is not as simple as the older they get, the less productive they are.

There are several factors which help to convolute the data. First of all backs who aren't very good don't stay in the league until 30 so many times the guys who make it to 30 are good backs and likely to stay productive. Secondly there a number of guys who have relatively high mileage who were pretty productive late in their career. LT is 33 but had 3174 carries for his career but at 31 had a very good year for the Jets. Compare that with Williams 1000 carries for his career. Curtis Martin was another guy who was productive late in his career. He put up his best yards per carry average in his 10th season in the league. And that was after he logged over 3000 carries.

I could go on and on but to assume that Williams productive will go down particularly with the relatively few carries he has sustained is not necessarily true. On the other hand having low mileage doesn't ensure he will be successful either.

The best assumption is that you can't tell how productive he will be based on past factors. He could very well play through the remainder of his whole contract at a high level. Which negates the largest part of your argument.


http://www.pro-footb....com/blog/?p=66


There are several parts to this.

[Argus Plexus]

Bull fu*king sh*t I posted that in another thread

Jonathan Stewart article on PFT.

Posted by Argus Plexus on 12 July 2012 - 06:31 PM in Carolina Panthers

Pantherman, on 12 July 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

Say What!! Ummm are you high. Atleast 20 million of the money on the 43 mill. contract still is guaranteed. Most of it comes comes up front for the first 3 years of the contract. The rest is much smaller amounts after. Don't see how you get that there no more guaranteed money left. He has plenty left that they must pay him.Pardon me, friend, I stand corrected. None of the money after this season is guaranteed.


Quote

After this season, none of the three years and $18 million remaining on Williams' is guaranteed. With Williams turning 30 next April, the Panthers could release the older back and go with Stewart, who doesn't turn 26 until next March.http://www.nfl.com/n...dule=HP11_MYNFL

Not the same article but the same information. Suck on that CRA.

[SpeedOFLight]

I truthfully don't see why a lot of people is worried about D Will's contract. As a fan, It is not my place to worry about money. It is not mine nor am I a GM that nows how the numbers work so I won't pretend. I was excited when D Will posted him signing the contract. I think he is a good keep for this organization. He is a classy guy who does work in the community and he has production on the field. Yeah, he will be 30 next year but when is 30 old. ( I am 30 and offended lol) Him splitting carries will give him a long productive career. I am excited to see what Chud is going to do with this offense this season. I say we should just focus on that because I believe the best is yet to come for this team of ours

[Argus Plexus]

I truthfully don't see why a lot of people is worried about D Will's contract. As a fan, It is not my place to worry about money. It is not mine nor am I a GM that nows how the numbers work so I won't pretend. I was excited when D Will posted him signing the contract. I think he is a good keep for this organization. He is a classy guy who does work in the community and he has production on the field. Yeah, he will be 30 next year but when is 30 old. ( I am 30 and offended lol) Him splitting carries will give him a long productive career. I am excited to see what Chud is going to do with this offense this postseason. I say we should just focus on that because I believe the best is yet to come for this team of ours

Fixed

[Stroupe-a-loop]

Alvin Harper syndrome.

I think the kids call it Peerless Price Pox or Javon Walker Pneumonia.

[CRA]

Yes the triple option itself was only ran maybe 10 times the season and in itself is a gadget play, but you forget that a standard running play or pass play was often ran out of that formation. Defenses have to account for the option when in that formation, whether we run it or not. What makes you think Cam asked chud to run the spread?

It is was reported at the start of the season he asked for the spread option look.....which became a staple of the offense. Stewart was always the RB..... Cam keeping, Stew taking the rock, or it just becoming a play action pass.

Double Trouble lined up in the pistol maybe 10 times which put both them on the field....Williams ran a handful of option pitches.....but only Stewart was used in the spread option base Cam asked for.....Williams lack of blocking and Stewart being from Oregon's scheme being the reason

[CRA]

You kidding me! Some people just think because Dwill will turn 30 this year that he will automatically going down hill after that. Some people need to get real. Dwill still has a few more years in him before he really starts slowing down. Hell Smith is like 32 right now and he is still going full speed. Age ain't always the case for RBs slowing down. Age is just one of the factors. Injuries is another thing. Which Dwill has not had any major injury yet. So Dwill is fine. There is no need to get rid of him after this season.

The 30 age mark doesn't apply to all spots....it routinely has marked the downfall of RBs. That has never been associated with WRs

[CRA]

Actually thirty isn't the big issue you make it out to be. Plus the data on how long players can play at a high level is not as simple as the older they get, the less productive they are.

There are several factors which help to convolute the data. First of all backs who aren't very good don't stay in the league until 30 so many times the guys who make it to 30 are good backs and likely to stay productive. Secondly there a number of guys who have relatively high mileage who were pretty productive late in their career. LT is 33 but had 3174 carries for his career but at 31 had a very good year for the Jets. Compare that with Williams 1000 carries for his career. Curtis Martin was another guy who was productive late in his career. He put up his best yards per carry average in his 10th season in the league. And that was after he logged over 3000 carries.

I could go on and on but to assume that Williams productive will go down particularly with the relatively few carries he has sustained is not necessarily true. On the other hand having low mileage doesn't ensure he will be successful either.

The best assumption is that you can't tell how productive he will be based on past factors. He could very well play through the remainder of his whole contract at a high level. Which negates the largest part of your argument.


http://www.pro-footb....com/blog/?p=66


There are several parts to this.

You are using LT as an example? An aging RB who was cut.....and took a job being a role player and paid like one?

Martin? Yes, I have always acknowledged there are exceptions. I can name some too.... Bufffalo has a 30yr old RB that has been running strong...but you are still suggesting exceptions should be considered the norm.

But for the last time, it isn't about Williams.... It is about the situation. As I said the Williams deal could of been a GREAT move for the right team. For Carolina....a team getting away from Foxball with a younger 1st rounder and a position changing tank at QB? Not that good.

[CRA]

I agree 100% with your assesment of Tolbert's Role but i think the shift will really be seen after this season. D Will did have some poor pass protect moments last season early on and I think it affected his carries. He improved toward the end of the season and finally got the offense.

I see Tolbert used more as h-back weapon in 2011 that will line up in non traditional spots on motion plays..fb screens..TE screens..great pass blocker and blocking on WR and HB screens...so the screen keys can happen on both sides when the ball is hiked (ok maybe not)

I was just saying that Williams rushing attempts should be higher this season compared to last just bc Cam may get less run attempts.

It does not mean that the team is deviating from the offense being based around Newton.

i just do not see how you can still run Cam as much as last season when he may get the richest contract in the NFL in two seasons..he will still run bc that is the major X factor in the offense but I see Chud using the threat of Cam running to bait plays this season as a counter to all the "Film Study" all DC's are doing in the NFC South...thus Williams still retaining his value to the team in 2011.

I can see Dwill's role increasing this season but anticipate a contract restructure, trade or possible release in 2012.

Tolbert and HB 3 to fill dwill's role..with Stew resigned and taking more of a feature role...65-35 (JStew-Tolbert)

Either way its going to be awesome to see this offense.....if only Williams can improve his pass catching on screens!!! Its like Fox coached him out of that ability that was a strength in college and his rookie season.

Williams also might not of taken a step back in his pass protection....he is just use to blocking in a more traditional manner.

The spread option looks are simply not something he was familiar with....a lot goes on. It is always an option run play....which is unique. So each snap he has to be prepared to take a unique handoff or then become a rec option or blocker.

Cam and Stewart both spent years doing it....and DWill was never was part of one. Which is why Stewart played the largest % of plays by any RB in the division. Cam works well out of the spread option

[Marguide]

.....Williams lack of blocking and Stewart being from Oregon's scheme being the reason

Williams also might not of taken a step back in his pass protection....he is just use to blocking in a more traditional manner.

I know you want to ignore this, but as a refresher, Stewart was named the league's worst pass blocker in 2011.

[ReadyorNot]

I know you want to ignore this, but as a refresher, Stewart was named the league's worst pass blocker in 2011.

Actually he wasn't. He was 37th worst pass-blocker, and he was in on 96 pass block snaps and allowed 12 pressures, while Deangelo was 34th ONLY in 57 pass block snaps, and allowed 5 pressures. Chud doesn't even trust d-will enough to put in on most of the pass-blocking snaps, AGAIN showing Chud prefers Stewart than D-will. http://www.profootba...-running-backs/

[Marguide]

Actually he wasn't. He was 37th worst pass-blocker, and he was in on 96 pass block snaps and allowed 12 pressures, while Deangelo was 34th ONLY in 57 pass block snaps, and allowed 5 pressures. Chud doesn't even trust d-will enough to put in on most of the pass-blocking snaps, AGAIN showing Chud prefers Stewart than D-will. http://www.profootba...-running-backs/

"Panthers RB Jonathan Stewart's lack of playing time over the past few seasons has been one of the more frustrating storylines in fantasy football. Talented teammate DeAngelo Williams has plenty to do with that. But Stewart's struggles in pass protection are another issue that's held him back. Pro Football Focus gave Stewart the worst pass-blocking grade among all RBs with at least 100 chances over the past 3 seasons. J-Stew has received a negative rating all 3 years, including a career-worst mark this past season."

This is from http://wdis.net/news...pass-protection
So yes, Stewart has been the worst over the last 3 years as measured by Pro Football Focus.

My point isn't that I think Stewart is as bad as he is being made out to be. Instead, I find myself in the position of defending DWill from statements that he is a much worse pass blocker. That just isn't the case.

[iamhubby1]

People tend to grasp at straws when making an arguement. Just the way things are. Stew was on the field more so he must be better. Not exactly the case as we have found out.

DWill is what folks call a home run hitter. He can take it to the house with any touch. He just may get more catches this year, I can see it.

Stewy, he is more the battering ram/bowling ball type. Still effective, but nowhere near as dangerous.

Why Not be happy having both? Come on man!