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GOP insider: Religion destroyed my party

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Posted

I was responding to Nanuqofthenorth's backhanded insult that republicans are peasants who worship the rich. If that's true, then so is the claim that democrats are peasants who worship government.

Your logic (if that is what you call it) is flawless as always!

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Posted

The problem with your argument is that Republicans have consistently gone out of their way to say that the complete and utter imbalance of this nations wealth by a few is something that should be embraced because it means capitalism is working.

To me the opposite is true. A monetary philosophy is a means to an end, not the end itself. The end is a nation that grows, thrives, and allows people to get ahead - the American Dream. For a very long time now this has not been happening. For those of you that are down on welfare spending and more government, think about the idea that the reason these things are happening is not because "the government wants you to be dependent on them" which is an absurd statement, but because there is not enough money going around to promote all the things that need to happen to create more wealth - spending by the middle class. All that money is going to, let's say, Cayman Island and Swiss Bank accounts. And it's so bad that you will happily pull the voting lever for a guy who actually does that. Bain Capital is not an industry, It never made anything. It's only purpose in life was to buy companies and try to save them or liquidate them - whichever made it's investors more money, regardless of the effect on our economy. People got filthy rich(er) off of the legal maneuverings of a bunch of lawyers at the expense of the regular folks out there, the ones we need to have money to spend the most.

Republicans used to be blue collar thinking people but now they are motivated by two things, religion and the false idea that opportunity still exists for people willing to work hard.

Democratic voters have their issues as well, but "worshiping government" is not one of them. At least with government we have a shot at electing people that will screw us over. Companies - not so much.

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Posted

religion is much like a gun. both have amendment protection. both were such a big deal that our founding fathers thought they should be near the top of said amendments.

so have either of those changed? no.

WE have. i have seen the enemy and it is us.

much easier and popular to deride something than to have high expectations for your fellow man. everybody gets a trophy and principal reduction and such bro.

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Posted

Your logic (if that is what you call it) is flawless as always!

Show me the flaws. This isn't even a hard one. You don't have to defend the labor theory of value or anything.

I want to learn. Put me in my place.

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Posted

Show me the flaws. This isn't even a hard one. You don't have to defend the labor theory of value or anything.

I want to learn. Put me in my place.

... republicans are peasants who worship the rich.

If that's true, then so is the claim that democrats are peasants who worship government.

How does the validity of the first statement make the second statement true?

There is no logic in your assertion.

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Posted

Thank you for the response. I want you to know that I thoroughly appreciate the polite, well-worded answer. And while I disagree with it, I'm glad you gave it respectfully.

The problem with your argument is that Republicans have consistently gone out of their way to say that the complete and utter imbalance of this nations wealth by a few is something that should be embraced because it means capitalism is working.

Laissez-faire capitalism has never existed in this country, but ignoring that, your issue (and do correct me if I'm mistaken) seems to be with the vast inequality of wealth.

Wealth, however, is not doled out arbitrarily and without reason, unless by a centralized market economy. Free trade is not good because it achieves equality, social or economic. It's good because it removes the coercion of government, which relies on the immoral and irrational use of force to change economic interests.

This centralized market philosophy rests on the belief that men, if not coerced, will make inherently irrational and destructive decisions. A foundation that is flawed from two different perspectives. The first is that it assumes man is an innately corrupt animal that will trade against his own interest, which is simply untrue, much like the Christian idea of original sin. The second is that, if in fact man is innately destructive and irrational, he should be allowed to destroy himself. There is no good in preserving a bad businessman's company.

To me the opposite is true. A monetary philosophy is a means to an end, not the end itself. The end is a nation that grows, thrives, and allows people to get ahead - the American Dream. For a very long time now this has not been happening. For those of you that are down on welfare spending and more government, think about the idea that the reason these things are happening is not because "the government wants you to be dependent on them" which is an absurd statement, but because there is not enough money going around to promote all the things that need to happen to create more wealth - spending by the middle class.

I think the bolded text is the crux of our disagreement. My philosophy is one that celebrates man living for his own sake, his own happiness. Self-interest, when not motivated irrationally or carried out with force or fraud, generates more money than a government possibly can through economic intervention, particularly when the government has no fear of failure, like a business owner does.

I suggest reading up on the Austrian economic school, which has far and away the best track record of predicting market crashes and growth patterns compared to the mainstream and Keynesian schools, let alone post-modern or Marxist ones. But these economic debates get bloated, so I'll focus on the philosophy for now.

Republicans used to be blue collar thinking people but now they are motivated by two things, religion and the false idea that opportunity still exists for people willing to work hard.

Both true, but only the first is a flaw. People are not helpless, pathetic victims to the mercy of fortune. This notion of determinism is what makes republicans and democrats so alike in their fatalism. Just as republicans will claim that God wills this or that, democrats are convinced that people lack any kind of sovereignty in their own scheme, and are controlled entirely by the wealthy. Which, for whatever reason, they view as necessitating the growth of government.

Hence, government worship. The view that only government can keep the wealthy from cannibalizing the lower classes, so government ought to be grown and made a force to be feared, keeping the wealthy in their place. Much like the truly pious believe that only an omnipotent God is capable of keeping men from killing each other.

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Posted

How does the validity of the first statement make the second statement true?

There is no logic in your assertion.

See the end of my response to cookinwithgas above.

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Posted

newsflash. we have nearly 315 MILLION individuals. we are NOT homogenized. therefore you have a myriad of views and ideals and that is just nearly impossible to put a bow on.

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Posted

The view that only government can keep the wealthy from cannibalizing the lower classes, so government ought to be grown and made a force to be feared, keeping the wealthy in their place. Much like the truly pious believe that only an omnipotent God is capable of keeping men from killing each other.

I'm sorry, but what else has kept the wealthy in their place? Asking politely?

There are a few ways to equalize the playing field, and government intervention is the only one that does not involve violence. Corporations sure depend on government to defend against transgressions from other corporations, but they can afford to buy what they need from it.

Our government was created so that everyone has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. "The economy" is a means to that end, not the end itself. It can and should be controlled for the betterment of the nation, not just the elite few. but the rich have rigged the system so completely that it is going to take some government action to correct it - and when I say correct it, I mean just that. We've done it before as needed in both directions, now it is certainly time to get it back on the workers side.

And I say this as a person who has worked hard and am pretty satisfied with where I am in life, so my outlook on this is not really self serving, it's truly heartfelt and the idea that the middle class must be restored so people can once again be able to dream is critical to the success of the nation.

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Posted

Neither of the last two nominees (Mccain and Romney) were favorites of the religious right.

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Posted

and neither won

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Posted

Neither of the last two nominees (Mccain and Romney) were favorites of the religious right.

They were/are, in comparison to their Democratic opponents.

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