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Brandon Hogan IR?


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#61 pantherclaw

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 07:50 AM

Hurney holding on to a player that's already a lost cause.

coach gets a say on that also.

#62 Icege

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 07:59 AM

You're trying too hard to defend Hurney...stop it

Hurney's crappy 2009-2010 drafts are the reason why we're trying to fill so many holes now. Hurney has been more miss than hit lately...whether you want to add blame to John Fox or w/e, Hurney is still to blame. Besides Cam, the 2011 draft is shaping up to be a really bad draft class as well...

Should we keep giving John Fox and Jake Delhomme credit for taking us to the Super Bowl in 2003 too?

That's pretty ignorant.

We have so many holes because JR cleared the roster in order to make sure stadium workers and others still got paid in the case that the lockout prevented the regular season from happening.

Please go find me any GM that consistently gets 3-4 players per draft to be with the team (and producing) 3-4 years after they're drafted. Most of the time, 2-3 is very lucky.

#63 Icege

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 07:59 AM

I'll also take Cam Newton as the one player that worked out :D

#64 CRA

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 09:15 AM

That's pretty ignorant.

We have so many holes because JR cleared the roster in order to make sure stadium workers and others still got paid in the case that the lockout prevented the regular season from happening.

Please go find me any GM that consistently gets 3-4 players per draft to be with the team (and producing) 3-4 years after they're drafted. Most of the time, 2-3 is very lucky.

Plenty of teams could get more drafted players to stick on the roster......if they held onto guys they should move on from.


#65 AceMan

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 09:26 AM

That's pretty ignorant.

We have so many holes because JR cleared the roster in order to make sure stadium workers and others still got paid in the case that the lockout prevented the regular season from happening.

Please go find me any GM that consistently gets 3-4 players per draft to be with the team (and producing) 3-4 years after they're drafted. Most of the time, 2-3 is very lucky.


Smh...

JR cleared the roster in 2010 and we've been rebuilding ever since, true. But our drafts have sucked since 2009, which is an ugly truth. As a team that is looking to "build through the draft", we've been pretty bad at it.

And it would be easy for me to name the Ravens or Eagles GM. But, I'll use one of our rivals. The Falcons GM.

2009
Peria Jerry
William Moore
Chris Owens
Lawrence Sidbury
William Middleton
Garrett Reynolds
Spencer Adkins
Vance Walker

2010
Sean Weatherspoon
Corey Peters (PUP)
Mike Johnson
Joe Hawley
Dominique Franks
Kerry Meier
Shann Schilinger

2011
Julio Jones
Akeem Dent
Jacquizz Rodgers (KR)
Matt Bosher (P)
Andrew Jackson
Cliff Matthews

The bolded are starters. They only have one player who hasn't stuck with their team. Most of the draft picks are immediate back-ups. On average, they are looking at 2 new starters per year. Plenty of those players are producing as well as back-ups.

Now let's take a look at our drafts..

2009
Everette Brown
Sherrod Martin
Corvey Irvin
Mike Goodson
Tony Fiammetta
Duke Robinson
Captain Munnerlyn

2010
Jimmy Clausen
Brandon Lafell
Armanti Edwards
Eric Norwood
Greg Hardy
David Gettis (PUP)
Tony Pike
R.J. Stanford
Robert McClain

2011
Cam Newton
Terrell McClain
Sione Fua
Brandon Hogan (IR)
Kealoha Pilares (KR)
Lawrence Wilson
Zachery Williams
Lee Ziemba (IR)

Now I'm being extremely generous with our team, but I would say we average 2 starters as well. (Hardy isn't really starting material; Captain and McClain are DEFINITELY not starting material). But, we average almost 3 players each draft to be off the team within the 1st two-three seasons. I know...coaching change...but that's a lame excuse. We've just been too hit or miss with the draft. And that's the MAIN problem with Hurney. He takes too many gambles...most recently that have been obviously bad *cough*AE*cough* And let's be honest, there are alot more players that will be cut from that list in the near future *cough*AE*cough*

You've just been enlightened, my friend

#66 Crixtala

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 10:20 AM

how is the coaching change a bad excuse... Rivera swooped in and changed everything about this team... drafted players from before he came in that don't fit his scheme are being shown the door. would you rather keep players that don't fit just so you can say that we had a more successful draft? because that's stupid...

and AE was a ticket seller... nothing more, nothing less

#67 AceMan

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 11:13 AM

how is the coaching change a bad excuse... Rivera swooped in and changed everything about this team... drafted players from before he came in that don't fit his scheme are being shown the door. would you rather keep players that don't fit just so you can say that we had a more successful draft? because that's stupid...

and AE was a ticket seller... nothing more, nothing less


It's a bad excuse because the only players who suffered from the coaching change were Fiammetta and Goodson.

Guys like Norwood, Irvin and E. Brown were given every chance to make the team.

#68 Tarheelbenny

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 11:21 AM

Smh...

JR cleared the roster in 2010 and we've been rebuilding ever since, true. But our drafts have sucked since 2009, which is an ugly truth. As a team that is looking to "build through the draft", we've been pretty bad at it.

And it would be easy for me to name the Ravens or Eagles GM. But, I'll use one of our rivals. The Falcons GM.

2009
Peria Jerry
William Moore
Chris Owens
Lawrence Sidbury
William Middleton
Garrett Reynolds
Spencer Adkins
Vance Walker

2010
Sean Weatherspoon
Corey Peters (PUP)
Mike Johnson
Joe Hawley
Dominique Franks
Kerry Meier
Shann Schilinger

2011
Julio Jones
Akeem Dent
Jacquizz Rodgers (KR)
Matt Bosher (P)
Andrew Jackson
Cliff Matthews

The bolded are starters. They only have one player who hasn't stuck with their team. Most of the draft picks are immediate back-ups. On average, they are looking at 2 new starters per year. Plenty of those players are producing as well as back-ups.

Now let's take a look at our drafts..

2009
Everette Brown
Sherrod Martin
Corvey Irvin
Mike Goodson
Tony Fiammetta
Duke Robinson
Captain Munnerlyn

2010
Jimmy Clausen
Brandon Lafell
Armanti Edwards
Eric Norwood
Greg Hardy
David Gettis (PUP)
Tony Pike
R.J. Stanford
Robert McClain

2011
Cam Newton
Terrell McClain
Sione Fua
Brandon Hogan (IR)
Kealoha Pilares (KR)
Lawrence Wilson
Zachery Williams
Lee Ziemba (IR)

Now I'm being extremely generous with our team, but I would say we average 2 starters as well. (Hardy isn't really starting material; Captain and McClain are DEFINITELY not starting material). But, we average almost 3 players each draft to be off the team within the 1st two-three seasons. I know...coaching change...but that's a lame excuse. We've just been too hit or miss with the draft. And that's the MAIN problem with Hurney. He takes too many gambles...most recently that have been obviously bad *cough*AE*cough* And let's be honest, there are alot more players that will be cut from that list in the near future *cough*AE*cough*

You've just been enlightened, my friend

Yeah, and the falcons are SOOO awesome that we're probably gonna be better than them this year! lol. You just don't get it. Drafting is only one part of being a gm. Hurney is great with the cap and he very rarely goes aggressively after a free agent and doesn't get him. Oh' and i guess Cam Newton,Johnathon Stewart,Deangelo Williams,Jordan Gross,Kyan Kalil,Amini Silaltulu,Steve Smith,Brandon Lafell,David Gettis,Gary Barnidge,John Beason,Charles Johnson,Greg Hardy,Thomas Davis,Luke Kuechley,James Anderson,Chris Gamble,Josh Norman,Charles Godfrey,Captain Munnerlyn,Joe adams,Travelle Wharton, And julius Peppers have meant nothing over the years.Let's not give him any credit for that! And i actually don't blame them for taking a gamble on edwards.Lots of other teams had a high grade on him and the team felt like they had jump up and get him. And i don't even hold him responsible for everette brown. Ron Meeks and John Fox where the ones screaming for that kid because meeks had just taken over the defense and he wanted brown to be his "dwight freeny". Like i said before, look at teams like the patriots who have missed on a ton of players but have made good trades and kept themselves in a good position. That's being a good "overall" gm. I mean we're in charlotte for god's sake! And within the next few years we'll probably be going to our 2nd superbowl with hurney in charge. Say What you want but i have no problem with him. And to answer your earlier question, yes i still give fox and delhomme credit for taking us to the superbowl in 2003 because there can only be one 2003 and our coach and quarterback did all you could ask that year. Not to mention that jake had one of the best superbowls ever that night. That was a stupid question!

#69 Tarheelbenny

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 11:31 AM

And if i'm not mistaken, didn't we basically gut our entire scouting staff in the last few years? Maybe the man was going off what he was given in some of these drafts that your so quick to point out, Just sayin....

#70 AceMan

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 11:52 AM

Yeah, and the falcons are SOOO awesome that we're probably gonna be better than them this year! lol. You just don't get it. Drafting is only one part of being a gm. Hurney is great with the cap and he very rarely goes aggressively after a free agent and doesn't get him. Oh' and i guess Cam Newton,Johnathon Stewart,Deangelo Williams,Jordan Gross,Kyan Kalil,Amini Silaltulu,Steve Smith,Brandon Lafell,David Gettis,Gary Barnidge,John Beason,Charles Johnson,Greg Hardy,Thomas Davis,Luke Kuechley,James Anderson,Chris Gamble,Josh Norman,Charles Godfrey,Captain Munnerlyn,Joe adams,Travelle Wharton, And julius Peppers have meant nothing over the years.Let's not give him any credit for that! And i actually don't blame them for taking a gamble on edwards.Lots of other teams had a high grade on him and the team felt like they had jump up and get him. And i don't even hold him responsible for everette brown. Ron Meeks and John Fox where the ones screaming for that kid because meeks had just taken over the defense and he wanted brown to be his "dwight freeny". Like i said before, look at teams like the patriots who have missed on a ton of players but have made good trades and kept themselves in a good position. That's being a good "overall" gm. I mean we're in charlotte for god's sake! And within the next few years we'll probably be going to our 2nd superbowl with hurney in charge. Say What you want but i have no problem with him. And to answer your earlier question, yes i still give fox and delhomme credit for taking us to the superbowl in 2003 because there can only be one 2003 and our coach and quarterback did all you could ask that year. Not to mention that jake had one of the best superbowls ever that night. That was a stupid question!


Falcons record the past 3 years

9-7, 13-3, 10-6

Panthers record the past 3 years

8-8, 2-14, 6-10

So yeah, the Falcons have done much better than us these past couple of years. Even with their playoff suckiness.

Listen, you can't give Hurney credit for everything with none of the blame. We can't just blame everything on Fox and JR. There are alot of picks/players/moves I like too. Even though Hurney didn't draft Steve Smith, I love the Cam and Kuechly picks. Just like I love alot of those players he drafted like T.Davis, Beason, and C.Johnson. Loved the Olsen trade. But, Hurney has messed up as well and it wasn't all on John Fox. If we're gonna blame this all on him, then you have to give the selection of Cam full credit to Rivera and/or JR. I understand the coach has alot of say in who we sign, etc. I just believe Hurney deserve some blame for bad picks and bad moves he has made.

Also, Fox would still be our head coach if we kept that "He got us to the Super Bowl" logic

#71 Tarheelbenny

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 03:15 PM

Falcons record the past 3 years

9-7, 13-3, 10-6

Panthers record the past 3 years

8-8, 2-14, 6-10

So yeah, the Falcons have done much better than us these past couple of years. Even with their playoff suckiness.

Listen, you can't give Hurney credit for everything with none of the blame. We can't just blame everything on Fox and JR. There are alot of picks/players/moves I like too. Even though Hurney didn't draft Steve Smith, I love the Cam and Kuechly picks. Just like I love alot of those players he drafted like T.Davis, Beason, and C.Johnson. Loved the Olsen trade. But, Hurney has messed up as well and it wasn't all on John Fox. If we're gonna blame this all on him, then you have to give the selection of Cam full credit to Rivera and/or JR. I understand the coach has alot of say in who we sign, etc. I just believe Hurney deserve some blame for bad picks and bad moves he has made.

Also, Fox would still be our head coach if we kept that "He got us to the Super Bowl" logic

I'm not giving him none of the blame.I'm saying that just about all gm's miss on players. Like i said, NFL rosters are HUGE and when your trying to add that many players every year your gonna miss some. The problem is that people on this board, and panther fans in general, are so fugin negative that it's ridiculous. And fox had to move on because the players had tuned him out. Being in the front office and being in the locker room are 2 completely different things. I just think overall, given the market we are in and what we have to work with that hurney has been a pretty decent gm and people should ease up on him. Try having miami or jacksonville's gm's for a few years and tell me how much you miss hurney then! And as far as the falcons i don't care what their record was the last few years. I'm saying that we just rebuilt and we already have a chance to be better than them this year. If their players were so damn good that we should envy them then we would be talking about them contending for future championships and not whether they can make the playoffs again.I don't think anyone is doubting our ability to contend in the coming years. Your entitled to your opinion though. So we can just agree to disagree.

#72 Icege

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 01:32 AM

I'm not saying that 09 was a great draft. It was booty trash. However, I don't think a team's success can be measured off of the starters they have that they drafted in the last 3 years alone. The Panthers and the Packers had the most draft picks on their 53-man rosters. Starting also doesn't necessarily mean quality either: Clausen , Fua, and Martin were all starters (as was Gettis, but he actually showed some promise). The fact of the matter is that only 2-3 draft picks really pan out of however many a team makes that year. What about Beason, DWill, JStew, Kalil, Gross, Johnson, Davis, Kuechly, Anderson, Hangartner, Godfrey, and Gamble? All were drafted and start (with the exception of TD and Hangman went out into FA before coming back). Bell was a UDFA and starts.

On the defensive side of the ball this season, the only two players that will be starting that were not drafted by the Panthers are Nakamura and Edwards. On the offensive side only Tolbert, Murphy, and Olsen were not originally drafted by the Panthers. What about 07? Beason, CJ, and Kalil? That's an amazing draft. 3 Pro Bowlers at 3 crucial positions? That's amazing. fug Dwayne Jarrett.

The Falcons also made it to the playoffs this season and last, getting knocked out in the first game both times. They also went one and out in 08 (the year of the delhomme meltdown). How good are they if they can't even make it past the division championship game?

#73 Murph

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 08:07 AM

Of course there is another way to look at the crappy drafts of '09 & '10: if the FO did a much better job then would we have won a few more games in Fox last season that we would have missed out on the #1 pick and thus missing out on Cam?

Sometimes it is best to just accept fate and move on.

#74 Kurb

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 08:11 AM

Aceman your argument completely ignores important factors.

2009 and 2010 were horrible for sure and the team is trying to recover from that.