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#76 Darth Biscuit

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:29 AM

Sorry but gov't assistance is gov't assistance.

What I would like then is an exact % of people sucking the gov't teet. What social programs for the poor are driving this country into the ground?

I think that the poor in our country are made into boogeymen and it's disgusting. People need someone to blame....

And republicans defending the rich are similar to the poor white southerners that were hoodwinked into fighting the civil war to defend the 2% back then (not the 1% we have now).


Tax deductions are not "gov't assistance", we'll just have to disagree on that.

I have no idea what percentage of people there are, there's no way to tell... obviously not everyone can get a job... but there are some people out there that do take from the gov't without giving and they are quite capable of working.

I'm all for helping the poor, not what I'm saying at all...

... there are good, nice decent people that are poor and rich, and sorry, worthless, shitty people that are poor and rich. I'm not defending or detracting from either group.

#77 thatlookseasy

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:42 AM

Tax deductions are not "gov't assistance", we'll just have to disagree on that.

I have no idea what percentage of people there are, there's no way to tell... obviously not everyone can get a job... but there are some people out there that do take from the gov't without giving and they are quite capable of working.

I'm all for helping the poor, not what I'm saying at all...

... there are good, nice decent people that are poor and rich, and sorry, worthless, shitty people that are poor and rich. I'm not defending or detracting from either group.


Its fine if you (not really you in particular, just speaking generally) want to call people out for being lazy, not working, and taking government money. But if you want to do that you cant use that 47% figure because that doesnt make any sense.

Like I said, 61% of those that dont pay fed income taxes pay payroll taxes, meaning they have a job. Take out those people, and that brings the number down to 18% (people who pay no fed income or payroll taxes). If you take the elderly out of that number, it drops to about 8%. Which, to be fair, is still a whole lot of people

#78 Niner National

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:42 AM

Tax deductions are not "gov't assistance", we'll just have to disagree on that.

I have no idea what percentage of people there are, there's no way to tell... obviously not everyone can get a job... but there are some people out there that do take from the gov't without giving and they are quite capable of working.

I'm all for helping the poor, not what I'm saying at all...

... there are good, nice decent people that are poor and rich, and sorry, worthless, shitty people that are poor and rich. I'm not defending or detracting from either group.

Many of the people that pay no federal income taxes pay no federal income taxes because of mortgage interest deductions, EITC, and child credits. If that is not government assistance in your mind, then you cannot at the same time quote that 47% of people are moochers..

Now I don't know if you ever said that (others certainly have and I haven't read every post), but if you remove those forms of government assistance, or tax deductions as you call them, the % of people not paying federal income taxes would plummet.

#79 Darth Biscuit

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:47 AM

Its fine if you (not really you in particular, just speaking generally) want to call people out for being lazy, not working, and taking government money. But if you want to do that you cant use that 47% figure because that doesnt make any sense.

Like I said, 61% of those that dont pay fed income taxes pay payroll taxes, meaning they have a job. Take out those people, and that brings the number down to 18% (people who pay no fed income or payroll taxes). If you take the elderly out of that number, it drops to about 8%. Which, to be fair, is still a whole lot of people

Many of the people that pay no federal income taxes pay no federal income taxes because of mortgage interest deductions, EITC, and child credits. If that is not government assistance in your mind, then you cannot at the same time quote that 47% of people are moochers..

Now I don't know if you ever said that (others certainly have and I haven't read every post), but if you remove those forms of government assistance, or tax deductions as you call them, the % of people not paying federal income taxes would plummet.


Yeah, I get both your points... I never quoted any percentage... I have no idea what percentage of people that actually could be working and choose not to... no clue. But there is some percentage that do that...

The 8% thatlookseasy quoted honestly sounds about right... and he's also right that that's still a whole lot of people.

#80 Cat

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:51 AM

good conversation people. well done

#81 NanuqoftheNorth

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:55 AM

I think the first part of his statement was correct....the 47% comment.

The rest was bullshit.


I know you don't care that most people not paying federal income taxes are still paying a higher percentage of their incomes in taxes than Gov Romney.

Or that over 50 percent of businesses don't pay income taxes either. But here is one last attempt to enlighten the fact adverse members of the Tinderbox before they vote against their own best interests.

George Carlin- "Its one big club and you ain't in it!"

Posted 06 September 2012 - 02:54 PM
Posted Imageg5jamz, on 06 September 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

http://www.aei-ideas...sfer-machine-2/



Posted Image

Corporations and Small Business Owners Also Pay No Income Tax During Bad Years

Those lazy, good for nothing "Job Creators"! Wait what?


Quote


A GAO study found that in every year from 1998 to 2005, approximately 55 percent of large corporations paid no corporate income tax. ** But just 2.7 percent of large corporations reported no net tax liability in all eight of those eight years. This reflects a similar pattern as applies to families and individuals — those who do not pay income tax in a given year often do pay income tax over time.

This pattern also applies to small business owners and others who deduct business losses from their taxable incomes and thereby eliminate their income tax liability in some years.

* Tim Dowd and John B. Horowitz, “Income Mobility and the Earned Income Tax Credit: Short-Term Safety Net or Long-Term Income Support,” Public Finance Review (April 11 2011), pp 619-652; CBPP communications with authors.
** Large corporations are those with at least $250 million in assets or $50 million in gross receipts. Government Accountability Office, “Comparison of the Reported Tax Liabilities of Foreign- and U.S.-Controlled Corporations, 1998-2005,” July 2008, <a href="http://www.gao.gov/n...tems/d08957.pdf

The US global economic policy and approach to taxation of its citizens has changed so radically since the 1950s as to render your chart at best misleading and at worst meaningless. High paying manufacturing jobs have been off shored and replaced with low paying service sector jobs, in many cases subsidized with federal programs such as the EITC. These recipients are mostly hard working individuals unable to earn a living wage in today's, low paying, service oriented society.


Quote

The overwhelming majority of Americans pay taxes

When all federal taxes are considered, it is clear that the overwhelming majority of Americans pay such taxes. CBO data show that the poorest fifth of households paid an average of 4 percent of their incomes in federal taxes despite their low incomes in 2007, while the next fifth paid an average of 10 percent of income in federal taxes.

The bottom fifth of taxpayers paid 12.3 percent of their incomes in state and local taxes

Low-income families also pay substantial state and local taxes. Most state and local
taxes are regressive, meaning that low-income families pay a larger share of their incomes in these taxes than wealthier households do. The bottom fifth of taxpayers paid 12.3 percent of their incomes in state and local taxes in 2011, according to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP). That was well above the 7.9 percent average rate that the top 1 percent of households paid (see Figure 3).

The bottom 20 percent of households pays an average of 16 to 17 percent of their incomes in taxes

Considering all taxes — federal, state, and local — the bottom 20 percent of households pays an average of 16 to 17 percent of their incomes in taxes. The next 20 percent of households pays about 21 percent of income in taxes, on average. [21]

Who Doesn't Pay Federal Income Taxes?
  • Approximately 61 percent are working people who pay payroll taxes. As noted above, even the low-income households in this group pay substantial federal income taxes over time. The main options to force these people to pay federal income tax in years when their incomes are low include cutting the EITC or the Child Tax Credit, which would tend to reduce work incentives and increase child poverty and welfare use, and lowering the standard deduction or personal exemption, which could tax many low-income working families into, or deeper into, poverty.
  • Posted Image
  • An additional 22 percent of people who did not pay federal income taxes in 2009 are people aged 65 or older who have modest incomes (and do not have earnings). The main option to make these individuals pay federal income tax would be to subject their Social Security benefits to taxation despite their limited income.[25]
  • The remaining 17 percent includes students, people with disabilities or illnesses, the long-term unemployed, and other people with very low taxable incomes. To make these people pay federal income taxes, policymakers would have to tax disability, veterans’, and similar benefits or make full-time students and the long-term jobless individuals borrow (or draw from any available savings) to pay taxes on their meager incomes.
  • Read the full article here.
http://www.cbpp.org/...fa=view&id=3505

#82 MadHatter

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:03 AM

Its fine if you (not really you in particular, just speaking generally) want to call people out for being lazy, not working, and taking government money. But if you want to do that you cant use that 47% figure because that doesnt make any sense.

Like I said, 61% of those that dont pay fed income taxes pay payroll taxes, meaning they have a job. Take out those people, and that brings the number down to 18% (people who pay no fed income or payroll taxes). If you take the elderly out of that number, it drops to about 8%. Which, to be fair, is still a whole lot of people


I am in the camp that believes EVERYONE should have a stake in paying for the costs to run this country. Make less and pay less.....make more and pay more. It is quite simple.

Nowhere should there be a HUGE chunk that pay NO FEDERAL TAXES.....even if they are working.

You still have a program where a minority is completely funding the system.

#83 Gazi

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:09 AM

fug being rich if you have to worry about a good chunk of poor people murdering you for food the middle of the night or y. Rich got that in the past, these morons todays don't get it.

#84 MadHatter

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:10 AM

I know you don't care that most people not paying federal income taxes are still paying a higher percentage of their incomes in taxes than Gov Romney.


Well, that is absolutely the most retarded statement I have ever heard.

How can someone who is PAYING ZERO FEDERAL TAXES pay a higher % than someone who IS PAYING FEDERAL TAXES?

They pay nothing to federal.....likely pay nothing/minimal to state...and only pay sales tax.

So, with Sales Tax they might pay 10% of their income in taxes.

Romney pays 15% Federal (Cap Gains). So, before state and sales tax he is already higher.

So, please enlighten me on how your Democrat Math works that they are paying a higher %.


I agree that there should be lower income people that play a low %. But, when 48% pay none, that is a big issue to me.

I pay a very high effective tax rate becuase I am in that sweet spot ($300k-$400k) that makes too much for many credits, but not enough to take advantage of any tax loopholes. My effective rate (Fed, State, etc) is well over 50%.

I do not expect those making low wages to pay anywhere near that amount. But, I do think they shoudl have skin in the game.....pay 5-10% Fed.

#85 Darth Biscuit

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:10 AM

I am in the camp that believes EVERYONE should have a stake in paying for the costs to run this country. Make less and pay less.....make more and pay more. It is quite simple.


I definitely agree with this, but we'll never have it with the tax system in place and there's too much political momentum for it to be changed... those in power want the system to be unfair and unequal, it provides them with the power that they have.

There's absolutely no reason why everyone shouldn't pay the exact same percentage, with no deductions, credits, loopholes or anything else. No reason except that it makes too much sense.

#86 MadHatter

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:13 AM

I definitely agree with this, but we'll never have it with the tax system in place and there's too much political momentum for it to be changed... those in power want the system to be unfair and unequal, it provides them with the power that they have.

There's absolutely no reason why everyone shouldn't pay the exact same percentage, with no deductions, credits, loopholes or anything else. No reason except that it makes too much sense.


I don't even think they should pay the same %.

Have a tiered % system with no deductions or loopholes.

First $10k...1% tax
Next $20k...4% tax
Next $25k....6% tax
And so on.

Once you get to about $300k....$20% tax on everything made above that.

Gov't would actually increase tax revenue and everyone has some skin in the game.

But, no matter what change is made SIGNIFICANT cuts in gov't departments, programs, and spending is a must.

#87 Cat

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:13 AM

I definitely agree with this, but we'll never have it with the tax system in place and there's too much political momentum for it to be changed... those in power want the system to be unfair and unequal, it provides them with the power that they have.

There's absolutely no reason why everyone shouldn't pay the exact same percentage, with no deductions, credits, loopholes or anything else. No reason except that it makes too much sense.



I agree for the most part. However maybe I'm a bit too benevolent, I think the very very poor should be exempt. If you make under 15k then I'm fine with you not paying taxes.

#88 MadHatter

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:16 AM

I agree for the most part. However maybe I'm a bit too benevolent, I think the very very poor should be exempt. If you make under 15k then I'm fine with you not paying taxes.


I just don't like people paying ZERO. Even 1% or 1/2% works for me.

Everyone should have some skin in the game if they have a say in the game.

#89 Darth Biscuit

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:23 AM

I agree for the most part. However maybe I'm a bit too benevolent, I think the very very poor should be exempt. If you make under 15k then I'm fine with you not paying taxes.


I would personally prefer this method... if you make less than say $20K, no taxes... everybody else, 20% flat rate, no deductions, exclusions or credits and NO LOOPHOLES. Period.

A tiered method would be acceptable, with the same conditions.

#90 NanuqoftheNorth

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:47 AM

Some blame goes to government policies, no doubt about it. But a good portion of it goes to the private sector, corporations and individuals. To much debt, poor lending standards by banks, to many mccmansions, etc....


You won't get any argument from me there.

Look, I live a pretty good life and feel like I've made some sacrifices to get to this point. I was raised to appreciate my good fortune as an American, leave things better than I found them, and to have concern for those less fortunate in our society.

I don't appreciate the lazy or the greedy and especially don't like the criminals, no matter where they reside on the socio-economic scale.

I'm not entirely happy with either party right now, but I'm not about to beat up on the poor and elderly for it. I'm certainly not going to use them as a scapegoat for why our economy sucks and we are running a deficit.

The wealthiest in our society have been the greatest benefactors of the current tax structure. No way should our middle class workers be paying a higher percentage of their income than the top 1 percent.


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