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Lower taxes equals hire more people and other nonsense


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#13 carpantherfan84

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:38 AM

The Constitution is pretty plainly written and is the founding legal document for how American citizens are supposed to be governed. It is the original founding contract supposedly keeping government from infringing the rights of its people as countless others before it had done. Hence, the reference to the American Dream and why people so often referred to its genius. So, it isn't an opinion I wish to impose on others... it is the opposite. The contract was supposed to outline how government would run to stay out of our lives and still protect our rights from being violated.

For instance... someone arbitrarily used a set of logic to impose various "sin" taxes for products like tobacco, alcohol, etc... They then used government to impose THEIR will on everyone else to "protect us from ourselves". This is CLEARLY outside the bounds of government's responsibility. For others, they decided to outlaw outright. Yet, having a family serves as a "good" thing and government should be giving people tax breaks for their good deeds to incentivize said behavior. Corporate cronyism steps in and decides to make sure that their lobbyists shore up favorable tax breaks for their businesses in the name of "protecting America's infrastructure". The list goes on for miles.

In the end, what I am compelled to pay in taxes goes towards all kinds of things that I fundamentally disagree with. I am not alone. So, here is the crazy idea... what if government stuck to its sole purpose of protecting its citizens and their rights? What if by some crazy notion we as citizens are left to our own devices to make our own decisions on what is moral and how to spend our time and resources accordingly?

I support the Fair Tax as a solution to the problem of just the tax code. The spending problem is something wholly different insofar as government is concerned (which skyrocketed under Reagan if I recall correctly). I would couple that with killing off the Fed as Ron Paul has outlined. That would help to stave off the blank check mentality that Washington wields at the expense of future generations. At that point the Fair tax would simply hold government accountable for how well its citizens do. It would also give people a REAL sense of what EXACTLY the government was taking from them rather than covering it up in graduated increments in the process of production.

After that, every citizen that votes, would actually have skin in the game and would then be incentivized to make informed decisions about what those persons representing them are actually doing with their confiscated coffers.


So many different places to go I hope you got time bud.

First off the Preamble to the US Constitution:

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

This statement pretty much leads into every other point in the Constitution and explains every role of government. The problem is that you and I will interpret them differently so we elect people to interpret them for us. I might feel like I would do a better job, or you might feel like they are doing to much but to say that the Constitution doesn't afford them the power to make that decision is ludacris. Thats what it is to live in a Democratic Republic. Also lobbying is allowed in the Constitution and while the idea may be morally objectional (lord knows I dont like it) the act is permissable under the Constitution and protected under free speech.

As far as the government solely protecting people and its rights. The governement has had a system of "assisting" the poor and disadvantaged since its inception. Pre Civil war government constantly donated land and finances to people willing to settle west of the Mississippi. Or provided reconstruction funds and land post civil war. This came from money collected as taxes and is a major reason our country is prosperous today and some of the land has made people insanely rich.

Money was given to encourage growth in the stock market pre depression but it was the "deregulation" of the masses and hands off approach of government that allowed its crash. Post depression saw another increase in government aid and food for the millions of poor allowing many of our grandparents not to starve, even though the money came from the precious few that survived the depression unscathed. Post Civil Rights era has a different theme as it seems that people do not like the idea of poor minorities receiving financial aid. With this president the government has placed an emphasis on the education and health care of the poor, while also not raising taxes on the middle income (which has never been accomplished before. I challenge you to prove that wrong) and only raising the taxes of the rich to a number even with one of the most prosperous times in our recent history. In short the general welfare of the people includes a lot of governemnt programs that you may not agree with but you voted (or maybe you didn't) and the winner got to pick the ones that are important. He also gets to decide how to pay for it.


Being left to our own devices? What does that really mean? Taxing you less? So that you would have more money to pay to corporations that basically decide every facet of your life. Just because you get to pick which car you drive or what tv you watch doesnt mean you control what cars are available for you to choose from or what road they drive on. Or what fuel they use. This country is filled with supercorporations that make decisions on the quality of life of entire nations. Without goverment regulations the corporations would really and unabashedly control our lives. Diminish the power of the government and watch companies like exxon mobil and microsoft start changing the whole dynamic of American life. Eliminate education incentives and yes the average family may recieve 150 more a month out of their taxes but that is not going to be enough to cover the new cost of unregulated health care, and education. All the companies would have to do is band together to establish a new price point that benefits them and there would be nothing you could do about it. They could even create situations that limit the ability of new entrepreneurs to enter the market, Case and point Walmart. They arbitrarily set the price of goods in an area to eliminate competition then raise the prices back when they are the only thing left. And you know what? We all still shop there.

And those "sin" taxes you speak of. Alcohol kills hundreds of thousands of innocent bystanders every year in automobile accidents. By that fact alone the government is required to take steps to mitigate that unnecessary loss of life. However the previous attempt to ban it resulted in more loss of life, so they hired more cops, taxed the hell out of it and regulated its distribution. Seems reasonable to me. Same with cigarrettes. Cant ban it without possibly infringing on personal liberties, okay got it but to not do anything would be an affront to the millions that are really suffering from its accessibility.

#14 GAme

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:52 AM

You are obviously small time and don't have employees. Anyone can be successful with a business out of a pickup truck.

#15 carpantherfan84

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:56 AM

You are obviously small time and don't have employees. Anyone can be successful with a business out of a pickup truck.


Oh yeah? so what model do you drive

#16 twylyght

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 10:01 AM

If you dispute the intent of the Constitution as the founding fathers wrote it, I suggest you do a little reading with the Federalist Papers as they will lay out even from Andrews' POV an underlying root of distrust of government given the history they'd observed. Almost all the positions we can take are laid out pretty plainly there. I side with Madison, and most people that have read them have done the same.

As for what qualifies as a sin tax... what if the people in power decide that all abortion is a sin? Prohibition? Perhaps public displays of affection? Interracial marriage? Marriage of any kind? Maybe we should institute Sharia Law?

That is the point of a REPUBLIC rather than a DEMOCRACY. A democracy is a room of wolves with one sheep deciding what they should do for dinner. A republic is that same scenario where the sheep is armed. Majoritarian tyranny is a real phenomenon, and is the REASON that REPUBLICS exist.

http://www.archives....nstitution.html
http://thomas.loc.go.../fedpapers.html

As for the free market... there is nothing truly arbitrary. The prices are set to maximize profit. If the competition dictates a lower price, then a business makes the decision on whether or not to make changes. The consumer then makes a decision for whatever is their reason to support whichever business they deem worth their patronage.

In the case of Wal-Mart, they are the beneficiary of a number of cronyistic laws that exempt them from regulations that other businesses must endure. Moreover, the reasons for having anti-trust laws is to PRESERVE competition for free enterprise. What we currently have is NOTHING like that. You'd do better to find such things in Hong Kong.

Cars? Really? Check out how many times the Volt has been stopped and started in SPITE of the lack of public support because the government has deemed this initiative too important to fail. Same with the banks. Same with the airline industries. Farming subsidies. Amtrak. Public radio and television. Take your pick of whatever bureaucrats have deemed to supersede the public interest.

That is the POINT of being able to LIVE FREE. It is why LIBERTY is a thing that USED to be COVETED as an American ideal. Now? Congratulations... its a system of picking the guy that gives us the most stuff that is pilfered from public coffers stolen from someone else. We are now in a game of seeing how long we can live off of someone else's work. Seems to be working for Europe just great!

#17 carpantherfan84

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 10:22 AM

If you dispute the intent of the Constitution as the founding fathers wrote it, I suggest you do a little reading with the Federalist Papers as they will lay out even from Andrews' POV an underlying root of distrust of government given the history they'd observed. Almost all the positions we can take are laid out pretty plainly there. I side with Madison, and most people that have read them have done the same.

As for what qualifies as a sin tax... what if they people in power decide that all abortion is a sin? Prohibition? Perhaps public displays of affection? Interracial marriage? Marriage of any kind? Maybe we should institute Sharia Law?

That is the point of a REPUBLIC rather than a DEMOCRACY. A republic is a room of wolves with one sheep deciding what they should do for dinner. A republic is that same scenario where the sheep is armed. Majoritarian tyranny is a real phenomenon, and is the REASON that REPUBLICS exist.

As for the free market... there is nothing truly arbitrary. The prices are set to maximize profit. If the competition dictates a lower price, then a business makes the decision on whether or not to make changes. The consumer then makes a decision for whatever is their reason to support whichever business they deem worth their patronage.


http://www.archives....nstitution.html
http://thomas.loc.go.../fedpapers.html

In the case of Wal-Mart, they are the beneficiary of a number of cronyistic laws that exempt them from regulations that other businesses must endure. Moreover, the reasons for having anti-trust laws is to PRESERVE competition for free enterprise. What we currently have is NOTHING like that. You'd do better to find such things in Hong Kong.

Cars? Really? Check out how many times the Volt has been stopped and started in SPITE of the lack of public support because the government has deemed this initiative too important to fail. Same with the banks. Same with the airline industries. Farming subsidies. Amtrak. Public radio and television. Take your pick of whatever bureaucrats have deemed to supersede the public interest.

That is the POINT of being able to LIVE FREE. It is why LIBERTY is a thing that USED to be COVETED as an American ideal. Now? Congratulations... its a system of picking the guy that gives us the most stuff that is pilfered from public coffers stolen from someone else. We are now in a game of seeing how long we can live off of someone else's work. Seems to be working for Europe just great!


Life gets in the way. I do not have time to offer a qualified rebuttal because I have stuff to do and I have already been writing for several hours and I dont think you actually read what I wrote but rest assured that more conversation is forthcoming at a later date.

#18 twylyght

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 10:24 AM

I look forward to it... and I'll get back to you when I don't have stuff to do as well.

#19 GAme

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 11:58 AM

Oh yeah? so what model do you drive

Ha. I used to own a subcontracting company that I ran with a dually with trailer out of my apartment. It makes like really easy when you can just 1099 your own contractors and carry a face policy for yourself. Try having to make payroll and pay SS, workmans comp, insurance, taxes, etc.. You have no clue what your talking about if you don't think taxation matters to small business. Cost of having employees has gone up at least 25% since Obamer came in. What you are talking about is a lawn care company with your buddy, right?

#20 Niner National

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:22 PM

Ha. I used to own a subcontracting company that I ran with a dually with trailer out of my apartment. It makes like really easy when you can just 1099 your own contractors and carry a face policy for yourself. Try having to make payroll and pay SS, workmans comp, insurance, taxes, etc.. You have no clue what your talking about if you don't think taxation matters to small business. Cost of having employees has gone up at least 25% since Obamer came in. What you are talking about is a lawn care company with your buddy, right?

Has it really or are you just making poo up?

I work for a small business.

In the last year, we've expanded to Charlotte, doubled our workforce, and handed out 10+ % pay increases to every employee while decreasing our healthcare premiums, increased 401k match, and gave out fairly generous (in my mind) Christmas bonuses.

We're on track for a record year and many of our clients are as well. We have about 100 clients and I'd say 95% of them are small business with less than 40 employees. We have clients coast to coast, but most of them are in the Mid-Atlantic.

#21 pstall

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:44 PM

this is my point. how YOUR biz is doing is only YOUR frame of reference. it's not some bizzare par value for small biz's across the board. each entity has it's own unique set of taxes and costs per the local and state level.

too many of the cases i'm working now are families whose small biz's have collapsed. it is a very interconnected world on the small biz scale and many times, you may only being doing good because your customers are doing good. not because you are some genius.

i have seen every angle of biz's the last 17 years. from advising them on generating wealth and revenue to tax implications to being more innovative to workforce solutions.

#22 Niner National

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:06 PM

this is my point. how YOUR biz is doing is only YOUR frame of reference. it's not some bizzare par value for small biz's across the board. each entity has it's own unique set of taxes and costs per the local and state level.

too many of the cases i'm working now are families whose small biz's have collapsed. it is a very interconnected world on the small biz scale and many times, you may only being doing good because your customers are doing good. not because you are some genius.

i have seen every angle of biz's the last 17 years. from advising them on generating wealth and revenue to tax implications to being more innovative to workforce solutions.

While I don't disagree that it is different for every small business, our business is intertwined with all kinds of businesses.

We have retail stores, home service companies, construction, manufacturers, real estate, and B2B clients. They're all doing well, and I have the data to prove it because we track every piece of marketing and communication our clients do on the web and off. We listen to every contact that is made and tag them for sales closed, sales lost, etc.

In many cases, we know more about our clients' business than they do.

Across the board we've seen increases in the last year.

If their expenses have risen, it hasn't caused them to fire people or stop hiring.

Does that mean that every business is doing well? No, of course not, but we have a pretty good sample size of small and mediums sized businesses in virtually every industry.

#23 pstall

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:16 PM

that's good. i would say we are many many years from a bona fide recovery. some elements in the economy may being doing well but it's new growth and new jobs that are going to save us.

many companies did their homework and adapted and have done well. but if the buyers start to go down or funds are reallocated elsewhere for that person to maintain, it has an opposite ripple effect.

what's intresting in what was described and the jobs report is does this mean because of the current tax structure biz is good? does it need to change? if ain't broke don't fix etc? the joys of unintended consequences

#24 GAme

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:25 PM

this is my point. how YOUR biz is doing is only YOUR frame of reference. it's not some bizzare par value for small biz's across the board. each entity has it's own unique set of taxes and costs per the local and state level.

too many of the cases i'm working now are families whose small biz's have collapsed. it is a very interconnected world on the small biz scale and many times, you may only being doing good because your customers are doing good. not because you are some genius.

i have seen every angle of biz's the last 17 years. from advising them on generating wealth and revenue to tax implications to being more innovative to workforce solutions.

That is a good point. In my experience in contracting, it has been increasingly difficult to hire employees. The IRS is worse than they have ever been.

Tensor - That's a pretty nice success story for this economy. What line of work are you in?