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Jason Cole Defends Cam Against Vince Young Comparisons


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#16 LinvilleGorge

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:15 PM

The same thing happens with white RBs.

Racial profiling happens. It's not just a black thing.

I'm not saying it's right or necessarily defending it, I'm just saying that it happens with all races. I guarantee you if there was an Asian LB prospect, the first comparison made would be Dat Nguyen. The Haloti Ngata comparisons are already starting for Star Lotulelei.

#17 XClown1986

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:16 PM

by the way, if anyone wants to see a listing of all the QBs drafted since 2002 who are white I'll be glad to post it. Its well over 100 players and today less than 10% of those guys have winning records or are still in the league. Why cant Cam be compared to or accused of being one of those guys when people want to slam him?


Again, because Cam didn't fail when entering the league. He did well. So did Vince Young. They both then struggled with their emotions in their 2nd year.

If the comparison was to Jamarcus Russell, I'd agree with you. But Vince Young's situation was very similar to Cam's. It's now just about how he deals with it from here.

#18 Captroop

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:17 PM

by the way, if anyone wants to see a listing of all the QBs drafted since 2002 who are white I'll be glad to post it. Its well over 100 players and today less than 10% of those guys have winning records or are still in the league. Why cant Cam be compared to or accused of being one of those guys when people want to slam him?


I'd actually like to see the list. My contention would be that very very few of the white QBs on that list were so-called dual threat QBs, which is a trait that VY and Cam undeniably share.

I'd like to look at the list and see if there are even a handful of QBs on it with a playing style remotely similar to Cam Newton. The closest would probably be Ben Roethlisberger...but he didn't wash out.

#19 DaCityKats

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:17 PM

The same thing happens with white RBs.

Racial profiling happens. It's not just a black thing.

I'm not saying it's right or necessarily defending it, I'm just saying that it happens with all races. I guarantee you if there was an Asian LB prospect, the first comparison made would be Dat Nguyen. The Haloti Ngata comparisons are already starting for Star Lotulelei.

but thats the point. why is it like that?racial profilling will always be here.

#20 SCP

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:19 PM

Cam isn't compared to white QBs because there is no white QB that has his skill set. Hell, not many black QBs have Cam's skill set. Cam's going to prove them all wrong in the end and I can't wait to see fat fugs like Peter King have to eat their words..... Again

#21 The Special One

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:19 PM

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#22 King Taharqa

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:20 PM

Again, because Cam didn't fail when entering the league. He did well. So did Vince Young. They both then struggled with their emotions in their 2nd year.

If the comparison was to Jamarcus Russell, I'd agree with you. But Vince Young's situation was very similar to Cam's. It's now just about how he deals with it from here.


Nothing about Vince's situation is similar to Cam's. Vince Young made the playoffs his 2nd year. Thats struggling? Is Cam going to the playoffs his 2nd year? Vince never lead the league in YPA. They're only compared because they are black. Thats it. Thats the reason you dont hear people calling Cam "another JP Losman" or "another David Carr".

#23 XClown1986

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:21 PM

Cam isn't compared to white QBs because there is no white QB that has his skill set. Hell, not many black QBs have Cam's skill set. Cam's going to prove them all wrong in the end and I can't wait to see fat fugs like Peter King have to eat their words..... Again


I'd say Aaron Rodgers, Andrew Luck, and Jake Locker have similar skill sets and they are white.

#24 King Taharqa

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:22 PM

I'd actually like to see the list. My contention would be that very very few of the white QBs on that list were so-called dual threat QBs, which is a trait that VY and Cam undeniably share.

I'd like to look at the list and see if there are even a handful of QBs on it with a playing style remotely similar to Cam Newton. The closest would probably be Ben Roethlisberger...but he didn't wash out.


Its not about how guys play, its how guys were sold. My list is filled with guys who were sold as "sure bets". My question is a) why did they fail? B) why are the guys who "play like them" not told they have to prove they arent them? c) if the "success rate" for "non-dual threat" QBs is so low, why are we seeing them get drafted every year despite that?

#25 Captroop

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:23 PM

Nothing about Vince's situation is similar to Cam's. Vince Young made the playoffs his 2nd year. Thats struggling? Is Cam going to the playoffs his 2nd year? Vince never lead the league in YPA. They're only compared because they are black. Thats it. Thats the reason you dont hear people calling Cam "another JP Losman" or "another David Carr".


Maybe no one is saying it in the media, but I'm definitely thinking David Carr. I don't care how big he is, when a QB is getting hit as often as Cam is and David Carr was, it can lead to irreparable shell shock and pocket nerves.

#26 XClown1986

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:24 PM

Nothing about Vince's situation is similar to Cam's. Vince Young made the playoffs his 2nd year. Thats struggling? Is Cam going to the playoffs his 2nd year? Vince never lead the league in YPA. They're only compared because they are black. Thats it. Thats the reason you dont hear people calling Cam "another JP Losman" or "another David Carr".


JP Losman never succeeded in the NFL

David Carr never succeeded in the NFL




Vince Young succeeded early. You said it yourself. Then his emotions started going haywire when he was playing bad, or the team struggled. The same questions were asked about Cam. Name a white QB that this has happened to. Don't worry I'll wait.

Otherwise, have fun being ignorant.

#27 LinvilleGorge

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:26 PM

but thats the point. why is it like that?racial profilling will always be here.


You answered your own question. I think it's just human nature to automatically associate people with whom they share a similar physical appearance. VY and Cam are both big bodied 6'5" black men who play QB and bring an athletically unique threat to the field. Physically, the comparison isn't that far off. When people were making that comparison leading up to the draft, I told them straight up that I'd take a non-crazy Vince Young all day everyday. If it wasn't for his issues between the ears, I think he would be a damn good NFL QB. I think he showed that he could've been.

#28 Captroop

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:30 PM

Its not about how guys play, its how guys were sold. My list is filled with guys who were sold as "sure bets". My question is a) why did they fail? B) why are the guys who "play like them" not told they have to prove they arent them? c) if the "success rate" for "non-dual threat" QBs is so low, why are we seeing them get drafted every year despite that?


A. Success rate is low at any position. You'd be better spent why the few who succeed do.

B. Because few receieve the amount of national attention Cam did, and now he's struggling in the spotlight. No one cares when a bad QB sucks. When a highly heralded and wildly successful QB suddenly struggles, he has to prove that he hasn't flamed out. If he wins, the comparisons go away.

C. Again the success rate at any position is low. Dual threat guys get flashy regular season numbers. But what percent of Super Bowl winning QBs have been dual threat QBs? For non-dual threats, yeah, the low end guys have the same crappy success rate, but the high end guys have an exponentially higher success rate. That's why non-dual threat guys get drafted.

#29 King Taharqa

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:35 PM

Here's the list....
*-denotes still active

2002
1 David Carr*
3 Joey Harrington
81 Josh Mccown
137 Randy Fasani
163 Brandon Doman
164 Craig Nall
186 J.T. O'Sullivan
205 Steve Bellisari
216 Seth Burford
232 Jeff Kelly
236 Wes Pate

UNDRAFTED
Shaun Hill*

2003
1 Carson Palmer*
19 Kyle Boller
22 Rex Grossman*
88 Dave Ragone
97 Chris Simms
163 Brian St. Pierre
200 Brooks Bollinger
201 Kliff Kingsbury
232 Gibran Hamdan
241 Ken Dorsey

UNDRAFTED
Tony Romo*

2004
1 Eli Manning*
4 Phillip Rivers*
11 Ben Roethlisberger*
22 JP Losman
90 Matt Schaub*
106 Luke McCown*
148 Craig Kenzel
185 Andy Hall
187 Josh Harris*
193 Jim Sorgi
201 Jeff Smoker
202 John Navarre
217 Cody Pickett
218 Casey Bramlet
225 Matt Mauck
248 BJ Symons

2005
1 Alex Smith*
24 Aaron Rodgers*
67 Charlie Frye
85 David Greene
106 Kyle Orton*
121 Stefan Lefors
145 Dan Orlovsky
213 Derek Anderson*
230 Matt Cassel*
250 Ryan Fitzpatrick*

UNDRAFTED
Jason White (former Heisman winner)

2006
10 Matt Leinart*
11 Jay Cutler*
49 Kellen Clemens*
81 Charlie Whitehurst*
85 Brodie Croyle
148 Ingle Martin
194 Bruce Gradkowski*

2007
22 Brady Quinn*
36 Kevin Kolb*
40 John Beck*
43 Drew Stanton*
92 Trent Edwards*
151 Jeff Rowe
205 Jordan Palmer
217 Tyler Thigpen*

UNDRAFTED
Matt Moore*

2008
3 Matt Ryan*
18 Joe Flacco*
56 Brian Brohm
57 Chad Henne*
137 John David Booty
186 Colt Brennan
209 Matt Flynn*
223 Alex Brink

UNDRAFTED
Caleb Hanie*

2009
1 Matt Stafford*
5 Mark Sanchez*
101 Stephen McGee
151 Rhett Bomar
196 Keith Null
201 Curtis Painter

UNDRAFTED
Bryan Hoyer
Graham Harrell*

2010
1 Sam Bradford*
25 The Golden Calf of Bristol*
48 Jimmy Clausen*
85 Colt McCoy*
122 Mike Kafka
155 John Skelton*
176 Rusty Smith*
209 Levi Brown
233 Gabriel Torres
239 Sean Canfield
250 Zac Robinson*

UNDRAFTED
Max Hall

2011
8 Jake Locker*
10 Blaine Gabbert*
12 Christian Ponder*
35 Andy Dalton*
74 Ryan Mallett*
135 Ricky Stanzi*
152 TJ Yates*
160 Nathan Enderle
208 Greg McElroy*

2012
1 Andrew Luck*
8 Ryan Tannehill*
22 Brandon Weeden*
57 Brock Osweiler*
88 Nick Foles*
102 Kirk Cousins*
185 Ryan Lindley*
253 Chandler Harnish*

UNDRAFTED
Case Keenum*
Kellen Moore*
Alex Tanney*
Austin Davis*

116 QBs TOTAL
104 drafted
12 undrafted
63 active in 2012



6 Super Bowl Rings (Eli 2, Big Ben 2, Rodgers 1, Kingsbury as a NE backup)
4 Super Bowl MVPs (Eli 2, Big Ben 1, Rodgers 1)
1 MVP Aaron Rodgers
21 pro bowl appearances by 12 players (Palmer 2, Romo 3, Eli 2, Rivers 4, Big Ben 2, Schaub 1, Rodgers 2, Derek Anderson 1, Cassel 1, Cutler 1, Ryan 1, Dalton 1). So about 10% of the guys on my list have played in or been selected to a pro bowl over the last 10 years.
11 have Playoff wins or roughly 10% (Grossman, Romo, Eli, Rivers, Big Ben, Smith, Rodgers, Cutler, Flacco, Sanchez, The Golden Calf of Bristol)
4,000+ yard passing season = 9 players or less than 10% (Palmer 2, Romo 3, Eli 3, Rivers 4, Big Ben 2, Schaub 2, Rodgers 3, Cutler 1, Stafford 1)

When i look at this list, I dont see the next Brady in there or the next Peyton. I see a bunch of guys who didnt live up to the hype, and a handful who have and have had good careers. So out of all these guys who didnt make it, the only guys we can compare a "struggling" Cam to is someone of his own race?

#30 Captroop

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:48 PM

When i look at this list, I dont see the next Brady in there or the next Peyton. I see a bunch of guys who didnt live up to the hype, and a handful who have and have had good careers. So out of all these guys who didnt make it, the only guys we can compare a "struggling" Cam to is someone of his own race?



First of all, you look at a list with Aaron Rodgers on it and you don't see the next Peyton or Brady? Not the issue at hand, just amusing.

Never the less, there were maybe two QBs on that list who were even marginally comparable to Cam Newton as far as playing ability, pre-draft hype, early career struggles, potential to flame out, and relative draft position. Most were either late round picks, so it's no surprise they never succeeded, a majority never played, much less started, and more still in the relative draft range have had success, and therefore aren't being considered.

Maybe, just maybe you could compare the Cam Newton situation to Matt Leinart. But first, their playing styles are totally different. Second, Leinert never even had a modicum of success in the league. He didn't have a sophmore slump, he had a Pro Career slump.

So yeah, Vince Young is an apt comparison. Sorry, I think the facts control for race.


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