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What does God really say on the shape of the world? (From the Biblical Perspective)


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#16 PhillyB

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:12 PM

I believe the earth is 7,000 years old, give or take.


so you admit the existence of a civilization, settlement, or even dispersion pattern of anything over seven thousand years would poke irreparable holes in this idea?

#17 Matthias

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:17 PM

so you admit the existence of a civilization, settlement, or even dispersion pattern of anything over seven thousand years would poke irreparable holes in this idea?


Yes, but the things we determine that are older than that time period, are done by dating methods. Show me a written date that is older than 7,000 years.

#18 PhillyB

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:04 PM

Yes, but the things we determine that are older than that time period, are done by dating methods. Show me a written date that is older than 7,000 years.


and stratigraphy
and dendro-chronology
and potassium-argon

your assertion that a date has to be written to exist is fundamentally absurd and will get you laughed out of town even by the most radical literalists

do you categorically deny the existence of the Magdelinians? How about the Aurignacians? Or the Solutreans or the Gravettians? Or Clovis culture in the Americas? Or the Natufians, or Abu Hureyra?

Do you deny their existence?

Do you know anything about dating methods? Or cultural and technological dispersion theories? Or global population theories? Or do you categorically dismiss them without reviewing the evidence because they don't fit your temporal understanding of a very narrow theological view?

#19 rodeo

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:12 PM

The age of the earth is a scientific/geological matter, not a theological one. It has been definitively proven via dendrochronology, human Y-chromosomal ancestry, oxidizable Carbon Ratio dating, rock varnish, thermoluminescence dating, fission track dating, ice layering, weathering rinds, amino acid racemization, continental drift, cosmogenic nuclide dating, erosion, geomagnetic reversals, impact craters, iron-manganese nodules, naica megacrystals, nitrogen in diamonds, and sedimentary varves. If you have proof that none of these methods work, please share it, otherwise talk about your religion in theological terms and not scientific ones, because it just doesn't hold up.

#20 NanuqoftheNorth

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:15 PM

I believe the earth is 7,000 years old, give or take.



Elisha was pretty zealous when it came to the word of the Lord. You can see that when he asked for a double portion of what his teacher Elijah had. So when these lads, who were not children but probably teenagers or old enough to know right and wrong, mocked him and what he stood for, Elisha cursed them in the name of the Lord as the passage said. Bad things happen when you're under the curse. (Similar to when the people of Israel complained about God's provision, deadly snakes entered their camp and began biting them.) In other words, when you mock God's provision, that provision is taken away. God didn't send the bears to the boys, the bears were always there. The difference is these boys were no longer under God's protection, giving way for something bad to happen.


So when your teenagers disrespect you as a parent, it is ok to turn a blind eye to their safety? That is what you are saying.

I find it surprising that a supposedly superior being like God finds it so hard to behave like a mature adult, much less a "God". Instead the bible indicates he repeatedly resorts to having tantrums when people don't worship him. For someone that is all knowing and all seeing, you would think he could anticipate these issues and come up with some less destructive methods to guide his flock. Creating floods, famine, pestilence and death seems more like the actions of a big baby not getting his way than a loving God.

Got to go for now, there are some bears trying to get in to my cabin.

#21 Matthias

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:52 PM

and stratigraphy
and dendro-chronology
and potassium-argon

your assertion that a date has to be written to exist is fundamentally absurd and will get you laughed out of town even by the most radical literalists

do you categorically deny the existence of the Magdelinians? How about the Aurignacians? Or the Solutreans or the Gravettians? Or Clovis culture in the Americas? Or the Natufians, or Abu Hureyra?

Do you deny their existence?

Do you know anything about dating methods? Or cultural and technological dispersion theories? Or global population theories? Or do you categorically dismiss them without reviewing the evidence because they don't fit your temporal understanding of a very narrow theological view?


I understand the rates that we test for in all those methods of dating. I admit I'm not an expert on every single dating method, I do know however the rates they test for are based on the current rate of decay and formation. It's based on if these things were happening (decaying or forming) consistently since it's beginning, then it took this long to be in it's present state. This is what I understand.

Yet if God created the world, and you know He would have created a perfect world, the processes that governed the world were different. I don't even know if decay rates existed at the creation of the world. For instance, God didn't create us to die, nor the animals. Death itself didn't exist. So obviously there was a change, and these are the things that are taken into account when considering what God has said on the world. According to Scripture, there was a global event that affected the entire planet. This event took place over a period of a year. I believe this had a major impact on decay rates, compared to how things operated before this event. I myself have an experiment in mind, that will attempt to show how these rates can be affected, based on what the Bible has said about the world.

So that is why I say dating methods is not enough. If people really lived 10,000 + years ago, we should have a written date that is that old or older don't you think? We should have something, or is it coincidence that we don't have a written date older than 5,000-6,000 years ago, matching up with what the BIble has indicated according to the age of the earth?

The age of the earth is a scientific/geological matter, not a theological one. It has been definitively proven via dendrochronology, human Y-chromosomal ancestry, oxidizable Carbon Ratio dating, rock varnish, thermoluminescence dating, fission track dating, ice layering, weathering rinds, amino acid racemization, continental drift, cosmogenic nuclide dating, erosion, geomagnetic reversals, impact craters, iron-manganese nodules, naica megacrystals, nitrogen in diamonds, and sedimentary varves. If you have proof that none of these methods work, please share it, otherwise talk about your religion in theological terms and not scientific ones, because it just doesn't hold up.


We don't use all those methods to get the age of the earth. In fact no method could give us a precise age of the earth according to scientists, but we mostly use lead-lead dating for the age of the earth. Yet as I stated, dating methods are not enough, it's based on today's rates of decay.

This is utter nonsense. I mock this stuff all the time. I live in Alaska and bears are all around me.

So when your teenagers disrespect you as a parent, it is ok to turn a blind eye to their safety? That is what you are saying.

I find it surprising that a supposedly superior being like God finds it so hard to behave like a mature adult, much less a "God". Instead the bible indicates he repeatedly resorts to having tantrums when people don't worship him. For someone that is all knowing and all seeing, you would think he could anticipate these issues and come up with some less destructive methods to guide his flock. Creating floods, famine, pestilence and death seems more like the actions of a big baby not getting his way than a loving God.

Got to go for now, there are some bears trying to get in to my cabin.


You forget how God created the earth. Everything was perfect, without death. Yet as a child who doesn't listen to their parents, they tend to get in trouble. Adam didn't listen to God, and as a result, death entered the world. If you had kids who said "bump you", and ran out into the world to do their own thing, do you expect them to become millionaires and run off into the sunset? It's the same with man telling God to shove it. Let's see what man does on their own.

As for the judgments you mention, there's a lot to explain with those things. I don't know if you would be able to understand, and I don't mean that in a condescending way. I mean it in a way that wonders if you're interested in hearing it.

#22 Matthias

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:07 PM

I'll continue this discussion in a sec. My dinner just arrived! :)

#23 NanuqoftheNorth

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:26 PM

You forget how God created the earth. Everything was perfect, without death. Yet as a child who doesn't listen to their parents, they tend to get in trouble. Adam didn't listen to God, and as a result, death entered the world. If you had kids who said "bump you", and ran out into the world to do their own thing, do you expect them to become millionaires and run off into the sunset? It's the same with man telling God to shove it. Let's see what man does on their own.

As for the judgments you mention, there's a lot to explain with those things. I don't know if you would be able to understand, and I don't mean that in a condescending way. I mean it in a way that wonders if you're interested in hearing it.


The Bible's teachings are based on an age when misogynistic authoritarian societies ruled the world and their leadership was intolerant of the illiterate minions thinking for themselves.

God's ruthless behavior in the pages of the bible is a direct reflection of those times.

You seem like a nice person, but unfortunately your rationalizations are about as convincing as saying the Easter Bunny is for real.

#24 rodeo

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:27 PM

We don't use all those methods to get the age of the earth. In fact no method could give us a precise age of the earth according to scientists, but we mostly use lead-lead dating for the age of the earth. Yet as I stated, dating methods are not enough, it's based on today's rates of decay.


Well they're more than you offer.

#25 King

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:56 PM

i guess the bible doesn't know everything after all


Woah now. Let's not be hasty.

#26 Bronn

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 05:01 PM

Maybe one day people will realize that if someone feels so strongly about the validity of something, there is no changing their mind... This means there isn't any real reason to waste your time trying, and you should probably just sit back and hope that these types of people will eventually off each other and leave the rest of the thinking population alone...

The evidence against a young earth, walking on water, living inside of a whale, etc. etc. etc. is available to anyone who really cares to accept it, yet you still have people wondering "what was god thinking/meaning when he/she did (insert made up poo here)?"...

It's 20-fuging-12 and we can't move past this under-evolved mindset that forces us to believe in fairy tales and parables... What a sad testament to our species, and whatever point of creation/reality really does exist out there...

#27 rodeo

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 05:02 PM

It was hilarious when you named your kid Tyrion.

#28 stankowalski

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:05 PM

I hate to derail this thread, as if it already isn't but I have a question for those of you attacking this dude's viewpoint. Do you believe in a Creator? Not necessarily the God of the Bible, but ANY God? If not, what are your thoughts on how everything around you exists?

#29 BBQ&Beer

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:03 AM

By the way, just like the flat earth thing, the Bible never stated anything about the sun revolving around the earth. Science does have an overall part in the truth of God's creation, but the Bible is the historical account of the universe if true. One way of proving this by the way, is if scientists who follow the Bible, was able to do better science, than scientists who didn't follow the Bible. Obviously, this isn't evident, but within the next 5 years or less, it will be. I can say that confidently because finally, I believe "creation" (I'm not talking guys at Answers in Genesis per say. They aren't really interested in doing real scientific study. Only critizing everything that scientists who don't follow the Bible says) scientists will do real experiments and publish their findings.

No. Joshua didn't stop the Earth, he stopped the Sun.


#30 BBQ&Beer

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:09 AM

I hate to derail this thread, as if it already isn't but I have a question for those of you attacking this dude's viewpoint. Do you believe in a Creator? Not necessarily the God of the Bible, but ANY God?

No.

If not, what are your thoughts on how everything around you exists?


Billions of years in which trillions of random events happen every second can have awesome results.


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