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Is Fiz around?


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#1 g5jamz

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 08:40 AM

Just asking...

http://www.nydailyne..._synagogue.html

:co:

#2 Fiz

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 08:45 AM

how much waterboarding was needed to elicit this information

it doesn't say

#3 Samuel L. Jackson

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 09:24 AM

I keep waiting for Jesus to make an appearance and stop all this madness...

Of course, I guess all this hate and violence is his will... Maybe Jesus hates stuff too?

#4 natty

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 10:13 AM

What does this have to do with Fiz?

#5 cookinwithgas

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 10:38 AM

G5 feels that if you have the gall to question anything the nation does (unless its a Democrat doing it of course) then you must be a terrorist.

#6 g5jamz

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 10:52 AM

Fiz probably understands the plight of these individuals in NY.

#7 Epistaxis

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 01:51 PM

how much waterboarding was needed to elicit this information

it doesn't say



Just for the sake of argument....how much would be too much?

If torture prevents an act of terrorism, can be directly linked to the prevention, is it justified?

Would another method, perhaps intelligence gathering alone, be enough?

What if it wasn't enough and a few dozen, maybe 100 innocent people died?

I ask, because I am unsure about the issue.
I can clearly see the fundamental moral argument against any and all forms of torture.

I am also not idealistic enough to think that intelligence gathering can be pristine. The seamy underbelly of covert operations is kept under wraps for a reason. Is the information always wrong? Is it always bad? Is it never effective? I don't know.

I suppose it is up to the individual to determine how much and what methods are "acceptable".
I'm willing to bet if a tragedy is prevented, many people would say "By any means necessary". You likely wouldn't agree. But I'd like to see alternatives.
Because I think I might be ok with choking the sh*t out of some scumbags to save American lives.

#8 cookinwithgas

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:03 PM

This is pretty simple. If it takes months of torture to get information (whether it's valid or not is another question), it's probably being improperly used.

There are times when immediate intel is needed, like in a battlefield situation. Torturing people, no matter how distasteful they are, dozens of times over a period of weeks does not sound like a great way to get valid information. It sounds more like plain sadistic revenge.

#9 Epistaxis

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:08 PM

This is pretty simple. If it takes months of torture to get information (whether it's valid or not is another question), it's probably being improperly used.

There are times when immediate intel is needed, like in a battlefield situation. Torturing people, no matter how distasteful they are, dozens of times over a period of weeks does not sound like a great way to get valid information. It sounds more like plain sadistic revenge.



I think you are correct.

Now what if said "months of torture" yields names of people and location of those involved in the planning, money and supplies gathering, the whole operation of a "cell". A group planning a 9-11 lite. Or perhaps something disgustingly more complex and dastardly.

Said group gets busted up.

Now what?

#10 Samuel L. Jackson

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:26 PM

I think you are correct.

Now what if said "months of torture" yields names of people and location of those involved in the planning, money and supplies gathering, the whole operation of a "cell". A group planning a 9-11 lite. Or perhaps something disgustingly more complex and dastardly.

Said group gets busted up.

Now what?


What if a purple elephant was born to a brown cow and a white horse?

Honestly, if people are determined enough to attack other people, it's going to happen...

It happens in every civilization... It's human nature... Man will destroy himself...

#11 cookinwithgas

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:26 PM

i don't think that its applicable. That kind of info comes from informants and other methods. Interrogation may verify some info, and maybe add a few details. Case in point, what went down today in NYC.

#12 Epistaxis

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:35 PM

I wouldn't know.

You might be right.

This is tough stuff. We aren't talking about guys wearing uniforms anymore. This is the ugly stuff of "insurgencies" and potential domestic terrorism, getting hit by people in our country either legally or illegally. The enemy next door. That sounds corny. But the point is, I think this type of "war" is so difficult to fight.

I think most would say you eliminate this threat by changing the policies that created them in the first place. Honest dialogue rather than activities associated with world hegemony.

Probably.

But you can't be a total pvssy.
And you can't please all the people all the time, no matter how pleasing or appeasing you are.

Dunno.

#13 Matt Foley

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:53 PM

What if a purple elephant was born to a brown cow and a white horse?


It would post on here under the name Samuel L. Jackson.

#14 natty

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 02:58 PM

Just for the sake of argument....how much would be too much?

If torture prevents an act of terrorism, can be directly linked to the prevention, is it justified?

Would another method, perhaps intelligence gathering alone, be enough?

What if it wasn't enough and a few dozen, maybe 100 innocent people died?

I ask, because I am unsure about the issue.
I can clearly see the fundamental moral argument against any and all forms of torture.

I am also not idealistic enough to think that intelligence gathering can be pristine. The seamy underbelly of covert operations is kept under wraps for a reason. Is the information always wrong? Is it always bad? Is it never effective? I don't know.

I suppose it is up to the individual to determine how much and what methods are "acceptable".
I'm willing to bet if a tragedy is prevented, many people would say "By any means necessary". You likely wouldn't agree. But I'd like to see alternatives.
Because I think I might be ok with choking the sh*t out of some scumbags to save American lives.


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#15 stirs

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 03:37 PM

If you take the liberal approach which is to wait til something happens and the react, would you put to death the terrorists once they kill dozens or 100? Most reactionairy liberals would say yes.

So, you would put them to death after they kill people, but not torture them before they do.


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