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#46 PantherWhiskers

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:14 PM

The hypocrisy of you feeling the need to suggest to me that I am refusing to acknowledge what you feel is sexism from Cam Newton towards some female reporter, while arguing with me that I shouldn't speak about racism against Cam is laughable.

Now to your points. Re-read my post. I never said that a certain group of people are feeling a certain way because of their race. I didn't defend his sideline demeanor (personally, I like it.) Im tired of all this leadership this and leadership that. The team sucks, the play calling sucks, the game management sucks, his play sucks. OF COURSE he should be calling people out. The leader should demand excellence from his people. I would have shouted at Greg Olsen to for what he said. I didn't say shouting was right or wrong. I said that some people get away with it. Cam for whatever reason seems to be on eggshells. I will concede that he is not being a dominant leader of men. That would require a lot more shouting than Cam is doing.

Racism in sports exists. ADMIT IT!!!! Its part of the healing process. Sexism exists in sports. I will freely admit that. I don't like either one. Does that make you happy? However, accusing someone of racism is not racist. If you say that you are an idiot. Im sorry. Not calling you an idiot dont know you personally but the statement is idiotic. Cam is experiencing a racial bias in the media. Media outlets, in particular ESPN, (hate them, black and white male and female) are definitely biased when covering athletes. Its their job to make inflammatory statements to sell ad space. They have no credibility when it comes to discussing sensitive subjects and they should never be quoted when making a serious argument either way. They speak nonsense on purpose. Warren Moon was spot on when saying that Cam is only compared to other black athletes, in particular ones that are unpopular. He is not wrong in calling people out on that. Lots of people black and white, male and female agree with Warren, lots don't. Got it. But dismissing him because he is a black man talking about racism, well...



It is not at all hypocritical for me to suggest you are refusing to acknowledge sexism in his statement because you made it clear you don't think there's anything wrong with it. You actually made it very clear you didn't see it as condescending at all and I felt I needed to explain to you why, in fact, it was.

Even in the interview his comments about script were about himself if you listen to the whole thing and the sweetheart comment didn't sound condescending to me but it was an insulting question from the reporter.


Those are your words are they not? In addition you claimed it was in response to an insult, but that simply wasn't true and I pointed it out along with the other inaccuracies in your original post.

I gave you an explanation as to why to me, as a woman, it was condescending. You, on the other hand, have failed to explain to me how simply comparing Cam Newton to Vince Young is racist or some of the other criticism thrown at him. Some of the comparisons may have been racially motivated, but at least when it comes to the Vince Young comparison and the media, that's a hard claim to make when one of the first guys to say it was Stephen A Smith. He's black.

Perhaps if Cam Newton, was more of a scrambling pocket passer like Donovan and Ben, and he was still being compared to Vince Young or Jamarcus Russell, then I would be more inclined to believe that's all due to racism. But that's simply not the case.

Now let me make it clear: I am not at all saying race isn't at times a factor in his criticism in the media or in forum discussions. Of course it is. My point is that not all of it is, a lot of it is valid, whether it's racially motivated or not, it still needs to be heard and talked about. But no one should stand for others trying to bully and silence everyone else that want to share what they feel as valid criticism. And what my point was that a lot of people using this tactic, are racist themselves. I never said accusing someone of being racist is racist. What I’m saying is a lot of times it’s a case of the pot calling the kettle black and it’s a practice of hastily throwing that accusation to bully, silence, discredit and to avoid having to deal with the criticism. And you and I both know it! So why don’t you admit it too? Because that’s part of “the healing process” too and because it simply will never get anywhere! The practice of trying to boil down all arguments and criticism to some sort of manifestation of hidden racism in order to use those accusations and try to discredit those who make the arguments simply won't work. I could just as easily turn around and say all of your arguments are simply favoritism based on sharing the same race, so you have no credibility either. So why should anyone listen to it or take it seriously? Right? I think we both agree on this because this is the point you were alluding too at the end of the post, even though it’s incorrect.


But dismissing him because he is a black man talking about racism, well...


See, I'm not sure what argument you are responding to at the end, because I did not dismiss Warren Moon for being black and talking about racism. I simply provided you with even more African American media personalities, who share some of the Cam Newton criticism, and it’s hard to claim they’re being racist too. As far as Warren Moon goes, personally I think he has little facts stand on other than his personal opinion, personal experience and suspicions. He’s provided few to no points to back up his claim and few alternatives of better comparisons and how it should be. Once again, just how many other white dual rush quarterbacks of Cam’s size have come out of college over the past decade that he could have been better compared to? He’s provided few to no points to address that obvious fact and few alternatives of better comparisons and how it should have been. Of course you have dismissed the examples due to your own personal opinion deeming they have no credibility, endorsing Warren Moon, and you eventually turn around, simplified the argument so you can end it with a meme gif screaming "that's racist".

And that’s simply not going to work. And simply comparing Cam Newton to Vince Young, is not racist either. In fact, in my opinion, at this point it’s probably unfair to Vince Young. He had a winning record and has accomplished more. Again, what I'm trying to make you understand is that if I or anyone else feel their criticism is valid, and are being bullied with racial accusations in order to shut up, while ignoring the argument, that won't make it stop. It will only make it grow and get LOUDER! No matter how many gifs of kids crying racism you put in your reply.

By the way, if you honestly believe the solution to leadership issue is for Cam Newton, someone who has yet to gain the respect of his teammates, or yet to accomplish anything NFL players and fans hold of value, on a 1-5 team, after a 6-10 season, is for him to "scream louder", then in my opinion, when it comes to the topic of leadershipYou clearly. Just. Don't. Get it.

#47 raleigh-panther

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:48 PM

People can post what they want and say what they want.

The fact is nobody's opinion about Newton matters except JR. He writes the paychecks. Newton represents him a whole helluva lot more than he does the fans.

If he has an issue with Newton he will handle it or direct Rivera to handle it.

I have issues with the national media in that they take snippets out of context and use it as a sound bite. Most, if not all, have never, ever watched a Panthers game or a Panthers practice or a full Panthers press conference.

The reality is simple. Newton will make it or he won't. It won't have anything to do with his skin color. If the Panthers don't like how he represents himself they are well within their contractual rights to muzzle him.

I would advise the writer to be more concered about players in the NFL with much more serious disgraces than not meeting what he believes is leadership. some below:

Dez Bryant, beats up on his Mother, still playing
Dante Stallworth, manslaughter DUI
Ben R. who is listed here and his attacks on women
the Icon, Ray Lewis, who knows a whole lot more than he admitted to about 2 people dying outside of his limo.
Pacman Jones, man paralyzed from shots fired and numerous other descretions.

For many more descretions based on actual arrest records:

http://www.utsandieg...rests-database/


Now, the way I feel about, as long as Newton is not in this list, does not embarrass himself off the field and strives to get better on the field, I who gives a damn.

#48 carpantherfan84

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:28 PM

It is not at all hypocritical for me to suggest you are refusing to acknowledge sexism in his statement because you made it clear you don't think there's anything wrong with it. You actually made it very clear you didn't see it as condescending at all and I felt I needed to explain to you why, in fact, it was.



Those are your words are they not? In addition you claimed it was in response to an insult, but that simply wasn't true and I pointed it out along with the other inaccuracies in your original post.

I gave you an explanation as to why to me, as a woman, it was condescending. You, on the other hand, have failed to explain to me how simply comparing Cam Newton to Vince Young is racist or some of the other criticism thrown at him. Some of the comparisons may have been racially motivated, but at least when it comes to the Vince Young comparison and the media, that's a hard claim to make when one of the first guys to say it was Stephen A Smith. He's black.

Perhaps if Cam Newton, was more of a scrambling pocket passer like Donovan and Ben, and he was still being compared to Vince Young or Jamarcus Russell, then I would be more inclined to believe that's all due to racism. But that's simply not the case.

Now let me make it clear: I am not at all saying race isn't at times a factor in his criticism in the media or in forum discussions. Of course it is. My point is that not all of it is, a lot of it is valid, whether it's racially motivated or not, it still needs to be heard and talked about. But no one should stand for others trying to bully and silence everyone else that want to share what they feel as valid criticism. And what my point was that a lot of people using this tactic, are racist themselves. I never said accusing someone of being racist is racist. What I’m saying is a lot of times it’s a case of the pot calling the kettle black and it’s a practice of hastily throwing that accusation to bully, silence, discredit and to avoid having to deal with the criticism. And you and I both know it! So why don’t you admit it too? Because that’s part of “the healing process” too and because it simply will never get anywhere! The practice of trying to boil down all arguments and criticism to some sort of manifestation of hidden racism in order to use those accusations and try to discredit those who make the arguments simply won't work. I could just as easily turn around and say all of your arguments are simply favoritism based on sharing the same race, so you have no credibility either. So why should anyone listen to it or take it seriously? Right? I think we both agree on this because this is the point you were alluding too at the end of the post, even though it’s incorrect.




See, I'm not sure what argument you are responding to at the end, because I did not dismiss Warren Moon for being black and talking about racism. I simply provided you with even more African American media personalities, who share some of the Cam Newton criticism, and it’s hard to claim they’re being racist too. As far as Warren Moon goes, personally I think he has little facts stand on other than his personal opinion, personal experience and suspicions. He’s provided few to no points to back up his claim and few alternatives of better comparisons and how it should be. Once again, just how many other white dual rush quarterbacks of Cam’s size have come out of college over the past decade that he could have been better compared to? He’s provided few to no points to address that obvious fact and few alternatives of better comparisons and how it should have been. Of course you have dismissed the examples due to your own personal opinion deeming they have no credibility, endorsing Warren Moon, and you eventually turn around, simplified the argument so you can end it with a meme gif screaming "that's racist".

And that’s simply not going to work. And simply comparing Cam Newton to Vince Young, is not racist either. In fact, in my opinion, at this point it’s probably unfair to Vince Young. He had a winning record and has accomplished more. Again, what I'm trying to make you understand is that if I or anyone else feel their criticism is valid, and are being bullied with racial accusations in order to shut up, while ignoring the argument, that won't make it stop. It will only make it grow and get LOUDER! No matter how many gifs of kids crying racism you put in your reply.

By the way, if you honestly believe the solution to leadership issue is for Cam Newton, someone who has yet to gain the respect of his teammates, or yet to accomplish anything NFL players and fans hold of value, on a 1-5 team, after a 6-10 season, is for him to "scream louder", then in my opinion, when it comes to the topic of leadershipYou clearly. Just. Don't. Get it.


Lady look. In the same way that you can take a conversation by two people that you have never met and apply a motive to one persons comments because you feel that being a woman gives you special insight into instances of Sexism,

"You actually made it very clear you didn't see it as condescending at all and I felt I needed to explain to you why, in fact, it was"

Warren Moon can do the same thing about Cam, the media and racism. Its his right. You dont have to like it. He probably wouldn't like you either. And for the record I heard his entire statement not just the quoted stuff and he specifically said that he was not saying it was racist just stereotyping.

If I speak out and say that what Cam said was not sexist, I would expect some women to disagree. Some will disagree quite aggressively. Thats fine. This is a forum. I dont feel it is bullying when someone calls me out on my ideas. That is what it means to be openminded. Dont get defensive. If you cant take it then why are you here? And dont start with that "im not being defensive, Blah, blah blah." Your entire argument is about how people are mistreating you and your fellow racists when you side with other racists about racist stuff. And stop quoting Stephen A. Smith. He and Skip Bayless are not respected avenues of information. You ruin your entire argument and people up here will eat you alive for it.

You wanna compare Cam to Vince go ahead. Plenty of people have tried to explain to others how dumb that makes you sound. But I guess you would have had to have played the game to see the differences. But I will summarize.

Vince Young 6'5 230 Cam Newton 6'6 250. If you missed it, thats 20 pounds difference in body mass.

Cam Newton is running a read option pass attack. Vince Young ran a more West Coast play action pass attack.

Cam Newton is not nice when he is losing. Vince Young barely spoke to the media early in his career, but was hospitalized from his inability to handle emotional stress.

QB's that ran a sub 4.6
Jake Locker
Andrew Luck
Colin Kaepernick
Tyrod Tayler
Russel Wilson
Cam Newton
Vince Young
RGIII
Mike Vick
Terrelle Pryor
Steve Young
John Elway
Randall Cunningham
and a few others over the decades.

A large portion of the most recent QB's drafted break 4.7

6'6" QB's
Joe Flacco
Cam Newton
Derek Anderson
Josh Freeman
Nick Foles
Ryan Mallett

QB's over 240
Ben Rothlisberger
Cam Newton
Brock Osweiler
Byron Leftwich


Read Option QB's in NFL
Cam Newton.

West Coast QB's
Mike Vick
Vince Young
Russell Wilson
RGIII
Donovan McNab
Sam Bradford

I could go on but I think you get the point. Nobody has the combination that Cam has. Period. It has never been seen before. He runs an offense noone else ever has so his failures or successes are unprecedented. A comparison to Vince Young is either lazy, stupid, racist or all three. You can just as easily compare him to Steve Young as Vince Young.

Lastly, Dont you ever question my knowledge of or ability to lead men. I have dedicated my life to military service and have served 10 accomplished years so far and have received various awards and recognition for leadership. My biggest accomplishment being that I have never lost a man in combat. You would do well to watch your accusations especially when you speak of things you know nothing about. But football is not war. It is not life. It is a game. Played by well payed professionals. Not suckling little babes in need of a tender hand. There are some people within our organization that are not cutting it. Cam may be on that list but he is as close to the bottom as someone can be with a lot of people on the chopping block ahead of him in line.

#49 Iceberg Slim

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:35 PM

This thread shouldn't have been created.........

#50 Darth Biscuit

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:44 PM

I hope nobody thinks we're gonna read those 5,000 word posts... Geesh...

#51 Originalman

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:03 PM

Lady look. In the same way that you can take a conversation by two people that you have never met and apply a motive to one persons comments because you feel that being a woman gives you special insight into instances of Sexism,

"You actually made it very clear you didn't see it as condescending at all and I felt I needed to explain to you why, in fact, it was"

Warren Moon can do the same thing about Cam, the media and racism. Its his right. You dont have to like it. He probably wouldn't like you either. And for the record I heard his entire statement not just the quoted stuff and he specifically said that he was not saying it was racist just stereotyping.

If I speak out and say that what Cam said was not sexist, I would expect some women to disagree. Some will disagree quite aggressively. Thats fine. This is a forum. I dont feel it is bullying when someone calls me out on my ideas. That is what it means to be openminded. Dont get defensive. If you cant take it then why are you here? And dont start with that "im not being defensive, Blah, blah blah." Your entire argument is about how people are mistreating you and your fellow racists when you side with other racists about racist stuff. And stop quoting Stephen A. Smith. He and Skip Bayless are not respected avenues of information. You ruin your entire argument and people up here will eat you alive for it.

You wanna compare Cam to Vince go ahead. Plenty of people have tried to explain to others how dumb that makes you sound. But I guess you would have had to have played the game to see the differences. But I will summarize.

Vince Young 6'5 230 Cam Newton 6'6 250. If you missed it, thats 20 pounds difference in body mass.

Cam Newton is running a read option pass attack. Vince Young ran a more West Coast play action pass attack.

Cam Newton is not nice when he is losing. Vince Young barely spoke to the media early in his career, but was hospitalized from his inability to handle emotional stress.

QB's that ran a sub 4.6
Jake Locker
Andrew Luck
Colin Kaepernick
Tyrod Tayler
Russel Wilson
Cam Newton
Vince Young
RGIII
Mike Vick
Terrelle Pryor
Steve Young
John Elway
Randall Cunningham
and a few others over the decades.

A large portion of the most recent QB's drafted break 4.7

6'6" QB's
Joe Flacco
Cam Newton
Derek Anderson
Josh Freeman
Nick Foles
Ryan Mallett

QB's over 240
Ben Rothlisberger
Cam Newton
Brock Osweiler
Byron Leftwich


Read Option QB's in NFL
Cam Newton.

West Coast QB's
Mike Vick
Vince Young
Russell Wilson
RGIII
Donovan McNab
Sam Bradford

I could go on but I think you get the point. Nobody has the combination that Cam has. Period. It has never been seen before. He runs an offense noone else ever has so his failures or successes are unprecedented. A comparison to Vince Young is either lazy, stupid, racist or all three. You can just as easily compare him to Steve Young as Vince Young.

Lastly, Dont you ever question my knowledge of or ability to lead men. I have dedicated my life to military service and have served 10 accomplished years so far and have received various awards and recognition for leadership. My biggest accomplishment being that I have never lost a man in combat. You would do well to watch your accusations especially when you speak of things you know nothing about. But football is not war. It is not life. It is a game. Played by well payed professionals. Not suckling little babes in need of a tender hand. There are some people within our organization that are not cutting it. Cam may be on that list but he is as close to the bottom as someone can be with a lot of people on the chopping block ahead of him in line.


Well fuging said!!

#52 PantherWhiskers

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:23 PM

Lady look. In the same way that you can take a conversation by two people that you have never met and apply a motive to one persons comments because you feel that being a woman gives you special insight into instances of Sexism,
"You actually made it very clear you didn't see it as condescending at all and I felt I needed to explain to you why, in fact, it was"
Warren Moon can do the same thing about Cam, the media and racism. Its his right. You dont have to like it. He probably wouldn't like you either. And for the record I heard his entire statement not just the quoted stuff and he specifically said that he was not saying it was racist just stereotyping.

You wanna compare Cam to Vince go ahead. Plenty of people have tried to explain to others how dumb that makes you sound.

Lastly, Dont you ever question my knowledge of or ability to lead men. I have dedicated my life to military service and have served 10 accomplished years so far and have received various awards and recognition for leadership. My biggest accomplishment being that I have never lost a man in combat. You would do well to watch your accusations especially when you speak of things you know nothing about. But football is not war. It is not life. It is a game. Played by well payed professionals. Not suckling little babes in need of a tender hand. There are some people within our organization that are not cutting it. Cam may be on that list but he is as close to the bottom as someone can be with a lot of people on the chopping block ahead of him in line.


For some reason I feel like all this is leading to is you continuing to get more hostile and showing you are incapable of containing yourself to a civil discussion without throwing out labels such as stupid, lazy, racist or dumb as predetermined alternatives to your arguments. Basically anyone that doesn't agree with you is one or the other. What a novel idea!

First I just want to say you are unbelievable in twisting words and putting them back into people’s mouths. I never applied motive to Cam’s comments, and my explanation was for YOU, because you were the one that seemed ignorant to why that comes across as offensive to a woman and saw nothing wrong with it. And it's not a matter of opinion. I tried to explain it to you, that any grown woman would find that INSULTING in a professional setting when it is completely uncalled for. If I called you stupid, it's not a matter of opinion that I just insulted you.

Now It doesn't sway me that you decided to break down some quarterbacks, into a couple of choice statistical categories that matches your argument. A couple among thousands. Most casual fans who make up the majority of the NFL television fan base don't sit around and break down weight, height stats, and offensive systems like you do when they draw up their arguments. They look at a television screen, and they see a dual rush quarterback with very similar abilities, size and yes, color, who perform and play the game in a similar fashion. So I'm not going to sit here and get into a statistical category debate with you. But the simple fact that most people don't doesn't make them stupid, lazy or racist.

But just for the record, I do know my football as well, and once again I will point out you that Vince Young ran the read option in 2003 with the Long Horns. Also if you want to get technical, the Panthers offense is actually based on the Air Coryell.

In the end it doesn't really matter what offensive system they run out of. No two NFL offenses are the same anyway and it’s an ever evolving process. What everyone sees on the field, is that both quarterbacks are proficient in the same basic concept of either using designed or improvised pass/run plays to bring out the abilities which set them apart from the rest. The biggest and most noticeable difference that sets them apart from your typical pocket passer is simply their athleticism and their ability to run with the ball. It's that simple. If your argument is that people need to see the difference of an inch in height or 20 pounds of weight while wearing football gear or a tenth of a second difference when watching television is laughable.


On the other point, I don't have a problem with how Warren Moon feels about racism, but if you feel statistics are how you should compare quarterbacks, then Moon certainly matches your choice criteria of stupid, lazy or racist, because Cam Newton and his suggestion Jay Cutler don't share a whole lot of them.

So for the last time let me reiterate to you my problem isn’t with his comments, but rather with posters, who have a hell bent intent of always trying to boil down the discussions race and use racial accusations to silence or discourage and invalidate criticism they don’t want to deal with.

As far as your football acumen, I have no doubt it is sound, but I have pointed out inaccuracies over and over in your comments, and you have a tendency to make up your own convenient points to respond to.. For example, I never once quoted Stephen A Smith or used him as a source of credibility. But making that statement does weaken yours. I only used him to point out irony or hypocrisy when it comes to allegations of race in the media. He is the one of the most popular media heads that made the Vince Young comparison, and there happened to be an argument there that you completely ignored. You were the one that wanted to talk about racism in the media were you not?

As far as your leadership experience, I'm not questioning your knowledge based on your experience. I know nothing of it. However I know leadership as well, and I have held positions of leadership in society. Your leadership isn't in question here. Your suggestion is. You made a stupid suggestion in a response to me, and since that is all I have to go on, I'm questioning your knowledge based on your statement and Cam Newton's current situation because when you consider that, as you like to say, it's just plain stupid. And to see that it requires less experience and more common sense. So if that’s your solution, I will question it all I want until you have something better to offer than your military experience to back it up.

In the military, maybe your subordinates listened to your shout out orders, because they simply have no choice but to follow the chain of command. And congratulations on your war efforts and not costing men lives but it has nothing to do with our argument, and it still doesn’t back up or add any sort of weight to that HORRID suggestion. Nor does it excuse it! This is about leading in the NFL.

In the civil world, as well as football, leadership isn't attained by shouting. It is especially a counter productive suggestion for 23 year old spoiled brats who haven't done anything worth of gaining their respect. In fact, quite the opposite. Nobody on the Panthers squad would listen to Cam Newton's shouts. It comes from being assertive and leading by example or by achievement. Cam Newton has done neither. It's got to be earned. In this case, it doesn't come with the rank. And as we have noticed it more than once, it's the other Panthers pulling him by his ears, like a little boy, and telling him to get his act together. As long as this is taking place, he will never earn the right to shout at anyone for anything and doing that is not going to turn him into a leader or gain their respect.

Pretty lame. Personally, I don’t feel like continuing down this path because it feels like you are just interested in slinging mud at each other…or perhaps you just wanted to impress me with your resume.

#53 carpantherfan84

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 08:22 AM

But just for the record, I do know my football as well, and once again I will point out you that Vince Young ran the read option in 2003 with the Long Horns. DERP, DERP, DERP Also if you want to get technical, the Panthers offense is actually based on the Air Coryell. Derp.




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#54 Cary Kollins

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 08:26 AM

Epic troll ms whiskers. I give it 3.5 "trolololols" out of four.

#55 Who Said What?

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:07 PM

Anybody else find it hypocritical that he's blasting certain media for pointing to race about every issue ever when that's been Whitlock's only gimmick for a decade now? This guy is so racist he doesn't even realize he's racist.


I hate this dude. He tries to minimize race and make it seem trivial, while trying to sound like some philisophical hate monger at the same time. All he does recently is talk shite about black athletes and how they need to quit hurting the black race as well as how black people need to get it together in general. It is racist!


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