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You fail at religion if:


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#31 Samuel L. Jackson

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 08:21 AM

lol congratulations you use star trek and matthew mcconaughey to justify your stupid beliefs.



This, however I wouldn't necessarily call your beliefs "stupid"... rather "unfortunate"...

I guess it goes back to not understanding how well educated, intelligent people can believe in something so obviously contrived for reasons other than how it is presented...

It's just sad and really depressing to know that people would live their lives and base their decisions on something like that... In a way I feel like is my duty to "save" those that would "save" me...

The time and energy some people put into religion could just be so much more well spent actually fixing the world's problems...

pstall, I like you a lot actually. You are almost always cordial and welcoming to debate.

I think a lot of what I say here is lost via text as opposed to speech as some have talked about... Some of my humor is lost in translation...

But, I still just don't "get it" as to why some people can believe the things you obviously believe. Again, the "Faith" thing is just an excuse to me...

#32 Samuel L. Jackson

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 08:22 AM

you fail at life when you eat up all the lies and rhetoric to a point that you cannot even think for yourself any longer. You then are just as the others, sheep to the slaughter.


Congratulations, you just described any devoted follower of religion, and as such, proved my point!

#33 Samuel L. Jackson

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 08:27 AM

Here's the thing. The post is made and SLJ posts his beliefs. Says they are right. Gets defensive when you say that they may not be. But he is definitely not the religous wacko.

Why is there so much time spent running around the same track in the Tinderbox?


Where did I say they are right? I left them open for debate and presented a few facts... I guess some people don't see facts as the truth?

I don't get defensive... I will debate anyone that wants to talk about it, or anything that I really believe...

Maybe there is so much time spent running around the same track because people can't answer questions without using magical "faith" as an excuse?

If I said I was a Scientologist, the Christians here would say how stupid it was to believe that we came from outer space and how our souls are the souls of past aliens... Yet, it's okay to believe in Jesus' miracles based on second hand information... just because... right?

#34 Samuel L. Jackson

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 08:36 AM

Inimicus...

I feel like, and don't hate me for making an assumption, that you are in a spot that I once was...

You have rejected a lot of what is taught in mainstream religion, but you still want to hold onto the fundamental elements contained within it... I think that is a wonderful thing to do...

Again, I'm assuming that you believe that Jesus is the son of God and that he died for all of mankind's sins?

My question is, if you reject other things, how can you truly 100% believe something like that?

I'm not saying it's wrong, because I don't know... I don't think anyone does really, but I do have a good idea that it's not the truth...

Also, do you HAVE to believe that to be a good person, or to feel like once this life is over you have done all you can for humanity?

I think it's a fear driven belief...

#35 Samuel L. Jackson

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 08:37 AM

5 posts in a row...

I rule this page!

#36 Inimicus

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 08:48 AM

Where did I say they are right? I left them open for debate and presented a few facts... I guess some people don't see facts as the truth?

I don't get defensive... I will debate anyone that wants to talk about it, or anything that I really believe...

Maybe there is so much time spent running around the same track because people can't answer questions without using magical "faith" as an excuse?

If I said I was a Scientologist, the Christians here would say how stupid it was to believe that we came from outer space and how our souls are the souls of past aliens... Yet, it's okay to believe in Jesus' miracles based on second hand information... just because... right?


How is it that this kind of open prejudice against anyone is still tolerated and even hailed as the rationally superior stand is beyond me.

#37 Samuel L. Jackson

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 08:55 AM

whoa whoa whoa...

"open prejudice" ???

What are you talking about? Are you saying I'm prejudiced because I don't understand how anyone can shun one belief as crazy, but believe something just as crazy?

#38 Ronald Reagan

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 09:00 AM

whoa whoa whoa...

"open prejudice" ???

What are you talking about? Are you saying I'm prejudiced because I don't understand how anyone can shun one belief as crazy, but believe something just as crazy?


That would be a similar prejudice to maintaining that all beliefs are crazy.

#39 Inimicus

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 09:05 AM

Inimicus...

I feel like, and don't hate me for making an assumption, that you are in a spot that I once was...

You have rejected a lot of what is taught in mainstream religion, but you still want to hold onto the fundamental elements contained within it... I think that is a wonderful thing to do...

Again, I'm assuming that you believe that Jesus is the son of God and that he died for all of mankind's sins?


Yes and no.

I believe that Jesus was a great prophet and his death was meaningful to me as a Christian, but I do not recognize his divinity.

If Christ was the son of God and not a man then his "sinless" life was not a significant event and largely invalidates his death. By comparison if Gandhi was divine his resistance would not have been the magnificent triumph that it was.

My question is, if you reject other things, how can you truly 100% believe something like that?

I'm not saying it's wrong, because I don't know... I don't think anyone does really, but I do have a good idea that it's not the truth...

Also, do you HAVE to believe that to be a good person, or to feel like once this life is over you have done all you can for humanity?

I think it's a fear driven belief...


By no means do I think that you have to believe as I do for your life to be meaningful and worthwhile.

As for how I believe in God, you dont want me to use the word faith so Ill take this route...
I choose to believe in God the same way I choose to believe in the love of my wife. I cant prove that she loves me anymore than I can prove God exists but Ive decided that I don't need to.

Hell even if in the end I'm wrong, Ive still lived a life where I strived to live by a set of guiding principles that hopefully has left this world a little bit better off through the positive impact Ive had on those people Ive encountered along the way.

#40 Inimicus

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 09:08 AM

whoa whoa whoa...

"open prejudice" ???

What are you talking about? Are you saying I'm prejudiced because I don't understand how anyone can shun one belief as crazy, but believe something just as crazy?


I almost deleted that post as soon as I made it because I kinda "shot from the hip" there.

It was a response to the whole all Christians are close minded lemmings tone I picked up. My apologies if I misinterpreted your post.

#41 Samuel L. Jackson

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 09:12 AM

Hell even if in the end I'm wrong, Ive still lived a life where I strived to live by a set of guiding principles that hopefully has left this world a little bit better off through the positive impact Ive had on those people Ive encountered along the way.


This is almost identical to how I try to live, but again, I don't feel the need to HAVE to believe in God to acheive it... I guess that is the main thing that sets us apart and what I really fail to understand...

#42 LiQuiD

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 10:31 AM

I guess some can only do good out of fear of retribution for not doing so. It's a shame that it isn't their consciences that are enforcing the doing of good. Some of us are more responsible concerning our morality than others it seems.

#43 pstall

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 11:29 AM

lol congratulations you use star trek and matthew mcconaughey to justify your stupid beliefs.


Thanks Dr.Suess. Boo hoo. You hurt my feelings.
Not justify but an analogy pencil neck. You see, an analogy is when you use something similar to relay a point so..oh nevermind.

I don't have to justify anything to anyone. Especially to some guy who can't even pay a hooker to spend time with him in public ala The Girl Next Door.
You are a poor mans Bill Mahr, bitter and obtuse before you have reached 25. You will be the guy in the old folks home who complains about the kids visiting the OTHER tenants when deep down you know you have driven everyone away from you because of your sheer arrogance and ineptness at being close to people.
All because of E Harmony pulling the plug on you.
Sad dude. Sad. :nonod: I will go chop my fingers off now so you can feel superior again.

#44 Epistaxis

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 11:30 AM

It came up once in this thread. I think Hawk said it.
To paraphrase "why do you care what other people believe?".

ok

If it was only that simple.
Atheists and Agnostics feel that anyone willing to accept the Bible as the word of God, and Jesus as the son of God might also be willing to listen a bit to carefully to the voices.
I guess I would say this reminds me of the GWB "talking to God" and knowing his decision to invade Iraq was the right one.

Now, many will say that hindsight is 20/20, and I'm cherrypicking my example. Fair enough.
And someone using strictly rational contemplation of the facts (as we knew them at the time) might have come to the same conclusion and taken the same actions.

But, it strikes many non-believers as the kind of stuff that religion can get involved in outside the realm of a personal relationship with the Almighty.

Because it just never seems to stay personal.
People want to spread the Good News.
Want to use spirituality to guide important decision making.
And, the American public, by and large, wholeheartedly APPROVES of this methodology.

This perplexes and sometimes annoys the non-believer.

The believer may say, "how is this any different than playing a hunch, a gut instinct?"
Well, I say it is different.
Because I submit that you aren't playing a hunch, or a gut instinct, but rather interpreting events through what you believe to be "God's plan". Just like GWB did. Or at least we have been told he used prayer and conversation with the Spirit to help him make his decision.

Perhaps I am making too much of both that incident and maybe the entire issue.
All I can say is, when I personally was "on fire" and a true believer, my ability to see the non-christian perspective on matters was almost nil.
Was this strictly a personal failing? Perhaps.
Absolutes existed, and were, in fact, very common.
But I can speak from both sides of this fence, and I know that I am a better person as a more rational person, rather than a "faith based" one.

I'm not sure if that made any sense.

#45 pstall

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 12:07 PM

It came up once in this thread. I think Hawk said it.
To paraphrase "why do you care what other people believe?".

ok

If it was only that simple.
Atheists and Agnostics feel that anyone willing to accept the Bible as the word of God, and Jesus as the son of God might also be willing to listen a bit to carefully to the voices.
I guess I would say this reminds me of the GWB "talking to God" and knowing his decision to invade Iraq was the right one.

Now, many will say that hindsight is 20/20, and I'm cherrypicking my example. Fair enough.
And someone using strictly rational contemplation of the facts (as we knew them at the time) might have come to the same conclusion and taken the same actions.

But, it strikes many non-believers as the kind of stuff that religion can get involved in outside the realm of a personal relationship with the Almighty.

Because it just never seems to stay personal.
People want to spread the Good News.
Want to use spirituality to guide important decision making.
And, the American public, by and large, wholeheartedly APPROVES of this methodology.

This perplexes and sometimes annoys the non-believer.

The believer may say, "how is this any different than playing a hunch, a gut instinct?"
Well, I say it is different.
Because I submit that you aren't playing a hunch, or a gut instinct, but rather interpreting events through what you believe to be "God's plan". Just like GWB did. Or at least we have been told he used prayer and conversation with the Spirit to help him make his decision.

Perhaps I am making too much of both that incident and maybe the entire issue.
All I can say is, when I personally was "on fire" and a true believer, my ability to see the non-christian perspective on matters was almost nil.
Was this strictly a personal failing? Perhaps.
Absolutes existed, and were, in fact, very common.
But I can speak from both sides of this fence, and I know that I am a better person as a more rational person, rather than a "faith based" one.

I'm not sure if that made any sense.


GWB is an extreme example. Not well rounded, properly informed folks who don't get the air or face time to further distort things.

You have to use common sense in the middle of living by faith. Absolutely.
You got people that are against medicne. Is that biblical or what they came up with? Its what they came up with.
If me or my family needs medicne treatment, you better believe we will.
Will we also pray during that time? Totally.

I agree on being ready willing and able to listen. You have to. If someone wants to have a good discussion on this, by all means.
But as you have seen just in this thread, some can't or refuse too.

On the spreading good news vs policy. I believe in the separation of church and state. I get why the founding fathers put that in there.
Would I prefer to have prayer in school? Sure. Do I understand the political fallout and ramifications? Sure do as well.

To have anything closely faith based, even if it's done properly, those that typically don't believe have a very hard time reconciling with that and almost by default avoid that group or org to help. And that group may in fact have the best method going to help out. But because of the stigma things get lost.
It would be like someone not giving money to a org that say Sean Penn supports. Despite the possibility of the good that could come from that group, once they see Penn's name they go the other way.
Same with faith based groups.
As for spreading the good news, if something has helped you out or if you ate at a good spot or liked a movie why wouldn't you want to share that?
Now if the person sharing can't see the forest for the trees on somebodys reaction or understanding a time and a place to bring it up that is on them.
They way I see it, athiests or non believers etc are just as judgmental as the chirstians they disagree with. The only difference is one believes and the other doesn't.

Even in our most rational, even minded state, we still make bad moves and cause problems. Its called being human.

I have learned over the years that thru facts and data and spreadsheets and power point demos isn't going to convert anyone. It comes down to being a friend no matter what goes down.
Jesus himself didn't beat people over the head. He didn't even run around saying I'm the Son of God. He lived a daily life, didn't avoid people based on their background and made time for whomever. He would meet their needs on many levels and would tell them a way to live and it was take it or leave it.

Works for me.


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