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Does anyone have a reliable source inside the organization?


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#121 carpantherfan84

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:02 PM

Did I say that? Let's not factor in actions and body language or his lack of maturity--all things that contribute to an educated perception. I would like to know where you went to school if you are saying that those things are characteristics of normal or average intelligence. You are not being honest with yourself.

The symposium went well. There were intelligent people there who understood our points. They respected our expertise and research, two things that should not be necessary in this rather obvious matter . Do you think that a limited vocabulary and limited mastery of the English language, Cam's mother tongue, are signs that he is smart? THere are not many better ways to judge a person's intellingence than listening to them speak, especially when his SAT scores are not available.

You have tried to twist everything in an oversimplification of my points so you can attack them. It takes no college degree to recognize a dumb quarterback. If you think Cam in smart or average, then keep him out of the same room with Luck, Brees, Brady, Both Mannings, RGIII, etc. Get Ryan Leaf and Jamarcus Russell to sit beside him and he will appear quite normal. Nice chatting.


Cam Newton Wonderlic 21
League average 20
Average Intelligence 20



21=smart enough

#122 TheGreatestOfAllTimeCam

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:51 AM

One person in the scouting department. I'll ask him about it tomorrow.


what are you going to ask him? and thank you in advance

#123 Mr. Scot

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:39 AM

I had a source until 7 am yesterday...


Someone else mentioned him (Mad Hatter, I think).

No longer inside the organization, but I imagine he could speak a lot more freely now than he could before.

#124 MHS831

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:19 PM

Cam Newton Wonderlic 21
League average 20
Average Intelligence 20



21=smart enough


Have your read the articles about the value of the wonderlic? I initially started out talking about the reason he does not audible and how slow his reads are.

His maturity, his decision-making, his football IQ. Those are the things I (and all Panther fans) should question.

#125 carpantherfan84

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:17 PM

Have your read the articles about the value of the wonderlic? I initially started out talking about the reason he does not audible and how slow his reads are.

His maturity, his decision-making, his football IQ. Those are the things I (and all Panther fans) should question.


Im not saying Cam is a genius, for all I know he could be a box of rocks. What I am saying is that I dont see anything that warrants the criticism that he gets. His maturity IMO is irrelevant, obviously this is only true if it doesn't reach grotesque proportions. I dont see anything that says he is so immature that it affects the W-L column.

His decision-making is improving. He attempts a lot less passes that have the potential to be intercepted before they reach the reciever. I believe this will translate to fewer interceptions than last year, but it means fewer throws and fewer TD's.

His football IQ is commensurate with a second year QB. (at least as far as the eye test goes) What do any of us really know about Cam's ability to read coverages.

The natural argument to what I just wrote is to point out that the coaches could be "shielding" Cam by running a spread as opposed to a pro style IOT simplify his reads. I dont think that is the case (i believe Chud is Dud) but that would be an indictment on the coaches more than Cam. Let him try the pro stuff. If he cant do it then replace him.

#126 MHS831

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:07 AM

Im not saying Cam is a genius, for all I know he could be a box of rocks. What I am saying is that I dont see anything that warrants the criticism that he gets. His maturity IMO is irrelevant, obviously this is only true if it doesn't reach grotesque proportions. I dont see anything that says he is so immature that it affects the W-L column.

His decision-making is improving. He attempts a lot less passes that have the potential to be intercepted before they reach the reciever. I believe this will translate to fewer interceptions than last year, but it means fewer throws and fewer TD's.

His football IQ is commensurate with a second year QB. (at least as far as the eye test goes) What do any of us really know about Cam's ability to read coverages.

The natural argument to what I just wrote is to point out that the coaches could be "shielding" Cam by running a spread as opposed to a pro style IOT simplify his reads. I dont think that is the case (i believe Chud is Dud) but that would be an indictment on the coaches more than Cam. Let him try the pro stuff. If he cant do it then replace him.


I admire your loyalty to Cam, but I see it a bit differently. Let me just comment on a few of your statements that were well written:

His immaturity is very relevant. I think it has cost him the respect of his teammates. He is as much as a symbol of this team as the panther logo. They know him inside and out. If they do not seem to respect him (and that is an assumption based on unspoken body language and what is NOT said in interviews), then there probably is a reason.

What do we know about his ability to read coverages? That starts with his ability to audible. He does not have that ability. Andrew Luck, RGIII, Andy Dalton, etc. do. He is holding onto the ball too long, but the biggest indicator is also when he reads in the option. He is wrong a lot, and that is only reading one man. If that is any indication, he is not reading 5 to 8 men in pass coverage.

I think Chud is a dud too, and I think Cam can be coached up. First, however, he needs to grow up a bit. He is a tremendous talent and he needs confidence. He is losing confidence right now, and much of it is not his doing. He is not a total loss, but if you blame Chud for Cam's situation now, then you are saying that he has a situation now, and that is all I am saying. He was raw when we got him and he is still raw. He needed a coach to bring him along and not let him free fall. Rivera is not that coach, Chud is not that coach.

Here is to changing Cam into a what he is capable of being.

#127 ReturnOfPFFL

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:20 AM

Im not saying Cam is a genius, for all I know he could be a box of rocks. What I am saying is that I dont see anything that warrants the criticism that he gets. His maturity IMO is irrelevant, obviously this is only true if it doesn't reach grotesque proportions. I dont see anything that says he is so immature that it affects the W-L column.

His decision-making is improving. He attempts a lot less passes that have the potential to be intercepted before they reach the reciever. I believe this will translate to fewer interceptions than last year, but it means fewer throws and fewer TD's.

His football IQ is commensurate with a second year QB. (at least as far as the eye test goes) What do any of us really know about Cam's ability to read coverages.

The natural argument to what I just wrote is to point out that the coaches could be "shielding" Cam by running a spread as opposed to a pro style IOT simplify his reads. I dont think that is the case (i believe Chud is Dud) but that would be an indictment on the coaches more than Cam. Let him try the pro stuff. If he cant do it then replace him.


I'm leaning towards a box of rocks.

Forget his maturity but when it comes to reading defenses he admitted it with his own mouth late last year after the Lions game. So we know that for a fact he was at least still having trouble with it later in the year.

Now if you want observable examples from someone watching the game, and you care about the so called "eye test" rather than numbers, well I've been following Brady and the Patriots since 2001 and I have a pretty good idea of how it's supposed to look. Not saying I expect that from Cam, but I know very well what he should be shooting for. To anyone outside this fan base that has actually spent week after week watching other QB's throw the ball, it becomes pretty obvious when he's taking 3 or 5 step drops that he seems to have a knack for holding on to the ball and adding 2-3 more while trying to wait for someone to get open...which rarely ever happens in the NFL.

This is a habit from playing in a read zone option. When the zone read is working, which it was in the beginning of last year for us and is still working for some like Seattle, 49ers and Washington, you tend to end up with WIDE OPEN receivers when the defense has to commit an extra man to stop your rushing quarterback. The whole idea behind is it gives you a 1 man advantage over traditional offenses, and it's proven to work, just inconsistently. If anyone watched the Redskins-Cowboys game you would have seen just how sickly wiiiide freaking open his receivers got at times against the Cowboys. That's because the zone read completely got the defense to bite on his rushing, and failed to cover one of their receivers. We had the same thing with Steve Smith in the beginning of last year. It becomes very easy to complete passes when you have guys wide freaking open.

Problem is that outside of RG3 in Washington, no one's been able to make that last in the NFL more than a few games. Cam is used to that, it's what worked at Auburn, it's what worked last year here and he keeps looking for that. But once that gets shut down, in the NFL you are required to read defenses, based on what you read you have to be able to find the best match-up to exploit(e.g. wide receiver on a linebacker) and throw to a specific spot on the field where you anticipate the route of your receiver to take him. All that needs to be done in about 2.5 seconds, whether you are being rushed or not.

That's what he is having trouble with and yeah it's pretty easy to see. It's what he does when he doesn't have those wide open receivers. I don't see him quickly playing the chess game, figuring that out in a quick and decisive manner like I just saw Colin do it tonight. Like I see 2nd year Andy Dalton who is showing measurable improvement from last year. Or even first year RG3. He's not even on par with him.

And you are correct, that the less passes he throws the less interceptions he throws, but as you stated fewer touchdowns as well. Efficiency is what matters in this case. TD/Int ratio. That's actually gotten worse this year.

Now I don't know if Chud is not letting him try playing from under center in practice. Maybe he is. But if he is already having these issues, you tend to have more time and it's a lot easier to survey a defense from the shotgun position, than while trying to do your drops from under center. It's a lot easier to anticipate and beat a blitz out of shotgun than when you are under center. It's also a lot easier to try and make the zone read work, because you can end up with wide open receivers which helps Cam out a lot.

But if you prefer to use the eye test, sit down and truly spend some time watching 2nd year quarterbacks like Dalton, Colin last night....heck....watch even first year RG3. Night and day. Watch how fast they make their decision to release that ball or take off for the run without any hesitation. And if you want to watch pros, watch how Brady and Rodgers always find and exploit match ups. Because I think if you actually do that for a couple of games, you will easily be able to figure out he's nowhere near that point.

For those fans that have only paid attention to Panthers quarterbacks, I hate to say it, but you will never be able to "see" anything wrong with it.

#128 Marguide

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:46 AM

This is a habit from playing in a read zone option. When the zone read is working, which it was in the beginning of last year for us and is still working for some like Seattle, 49ers and Washington, you tend to end up with WIDE OPEN receivers when the defense has to commit an extra man to stop your rushing quarterback. The whole idea behind is it gives you a 1 man advantage over traditional offenses, and it's proven to work, just inconsistently. If anyone watched the Redskins-Cowboys game you would have seen just how sickly wiiiide freaking open his receivers got at times against the Cowboys. That's because the zone read completely got the defense to bite on his rushing, and failed to cover one of their receivers. We had the same thing with Steve Smith in the beginning of last year. It becomes very easy to complete passes when you have guys wide freaking open.


It's posts like this that prove you don't watch the games.

We didn't run read option early last year. Not at all. The read option was added late in the year, but was not used extensively until the beginning of this year.

We also ran many more plays from under center last year than this year. Furthermore, many of our best drives have come when we run under center plays. Reference the Denver game if you need an example.

Stick to pulling stats off NFL.com. Your cognitive bias is getting in the way.

#129 ReturnOfPFFL

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:57 AM

It's posts like this that prove you don't watch the games.

We didn't run read option early last year. Not at all. The read option was added late in the year, but was not used extensively until the beginning of this year.

We also ran many more plays from under center last year than this year. Furthermore, many of our best drives have come when we run under center plays. Reference the Denver game if you need an example.

Stick to pulling stats off NFL.com. Your cognitive bias is getting in the way.



No? I didn't just sat here and watch all the games while posting in the chat room? Tell me more...

Yes we did. Quite often actually. We ran it out of the pistol formation, and it was based on the Air Coryell, but we still ran spread and read option plays. Don't try to outhink yourself there Marguide. They are many variations of pretty much the same thing with funny little names.

But perhaps you'd like to enlighten me with your expert opinion of the difference between our option, the college spread option, Air Coryell, and what exactly it has to do with what I said above? How about it?

#130 Bwood

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:25 AM

How can this guy type so much stuff but know so little?

#131 Originalman

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:51 AM

Agreed that we disagree. But respectfully, you say that there is nothing to suggest that Cam is anything other than "normal" and then give things to suggest he is below normal and make excuses for them. However, I am in the business of analyzing, and assessing intelligence. I speak at symposiums and seminars on the subject. Most recently: The negligence of higher education on the development of divergent thinking skills. I am taking a group of undergraduate students to present at Duke University tomorrow (Google: State of NC undergraduate research and creativity symposium at Duke University if you need verification. We present at 9:15 in the Engineering facility.) Discount that if you want, but I don't tell Mechanics about transmissions or try to explain the law to attorneys, even though I pretend to know about both. (I know people are going to comment on that, but that is the truth and sorry if it sounds arrogant-just explaining why I know what I am talking about).

Cam has done little to demonstrate inelligence. Whether it be behind a microphone or a center, I am not seeing nornal for a pro QB. Look at the QBs from this year and last: RGIII, Andy Dalton, Andrew Luck, Tannehill, C. Ponder, Gabbert, Locker, Russell Wilson, Weeden, etc --that is normal. Most on this list were picked much later than Cam, and many are outperforming him. They are learning and growing--Is Cam?


So let me get this straight Ponder and Gabbert are intelligent QBs? These are two men who look like some of the dumbest QBs I have ever seen play. So intelligence is based on how well a person speaks the English language. Hmmm so all these back wood red neck professors my up north yankee self had in college (when working on my undergrad, masters and PHD in the deep south) who sounded like Terry Bradshaw and I could barely understand with my Jack and Jill education were actually unintelligent. Well I guess your learn something new everyday.

#132 Originalman

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:56 AM

So does that mean magic Johnson mr. self made damn near billionaire. Who doesn't have a great command of the English language is unintelligent. So if I had a million dollars and had a choice to ask Magic or Mark Brunell what to invest in to make my money grow I should ask Brunell correct? You know since he speaks English so well.

#133 Originalman

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:01 AM

He audibled the 3rd offensive play this year against Tampa. I'm sure there are more examples; I just happened to see that play last night.

At some point he was obviously told to stop. Your take on that is it's due to his stupidity.

Based on what we've seen this year, Chud may be the one with the intelligence issues.


So does that mean all of Steve Spurrier's offensive players in Washington were dumb..because you know he didn't allow them to call hot routes. Or was it because his dumb ass who was a suppose to be a genius didn't have hot routes in his offense.

#134 Originalman

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:05 AM

Andrew Luck has a 2-14 team that was rebuilding at 6-3. He audibles and is smart.

RGIIII audibles and the Skins offense is eplosive--complettion rate over 70%-he audibles and is smart.

The Ravens have never been known for their offensive prowess and Flacco has not lived up to his potential..

I did say that Cam is not a smart QB now. That is not to say that he will not grow and learn, nor is it to say that he is the only one who does not audible because he is not smart.


Actually the Shanahan's don't allow audibles in their offense. Mike and his son have admitted such. Now if you said Josh Freeman and Wilson then you would be correct.

#135 Marguide

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:12 AM

No? I didn't just sat here and watch all the games while posting in the chat room? Tell me more...

Yes we did. Quite often actually. We ran it out of the pistol formation, and it was based on the Air Coryell, but we still ran spread and read option plays. Don't try to outhink yourself there Marguide. They are many variations of pretty much the same thing with funny little names.

But perhaps you'd like to enlighten me with your expert opinion of the difference between our option, the college spread option, Air Coryell, and what exactly it has to do with what I said above? How about it?


Sorry, but you're not talking yourself out of this one. You said we ran read option early in the year last
year and it fooled people, allowing Cam to put up big numbers. Find me an example from say the Arizona game, or the GB game or the Chicago game when we ran the read option. While you're at it, please note the relatively high percentage of plays run from under center.

Go ahead. Do it.


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