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The Myth of Cam Newton under pressure dispelled


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#106 Actionman0z

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:52 AM

my eyes show me that more times than some fans are willing to admit, newton is holding onto the ball too long.

my mouth screams what my eyes show me.

my son's ears can verify the information that my eyes and mouth relay.


So can my girlfriend.

#107 CRA

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:52 AM

Because to look at efficiency you need both. Possessions and scoring efficiency. Newton has more of a problem with interceptions so I focused on the main problem. You mentioned superbowl, which is why I mentioned post season. Two of those guys you listed, Eli and Brees step up their game in the post season. They can't win Superbowl either without becoming efficient in the post season. Look at their post season stats.

Eli - 2.2%, 2.1 TD/TO
Brees - 1.0%, 5.5 TD/TO

That's pretty efficient.

And of course you need all 3 phases to win, but when your primary ball handler that touches the ball on every single possession is inefficient, you're just not going to win many football games. Unless, as I stated, you have an elite defense. And in that case, you are winning despite your QB. Not because of him. If you're going to put it on your defense or other parts of your team, then what you need is a game manager, not a gunslinger. That's like your team having a dead weight they need to carry.


you said QBs could win w/ a INT % over 3.0. You said to name 1. I named many.

Fact still remains, there are 2 ways to win.

1. Play 3 phases of football.

2. Have an elite all time great QB who carries a team.

We have a young QB, 1 is the only option. 2 has never been option, even for the great QBs when they where young.

You can change what you want to argue 10x, doesn't change this reality.

No one could be efficient doing what Carolina asks of Newton 25 games into their career.....THAT is a reality you simply choose to avoid.

#108 csx

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:02 PM

I have not read through this but Pro football focus has an "Under Pressure" ratings system. I don't know the details as I just glanced at it but it rates Newton as second to last of the starters.

#109 ReturnOfPFFL

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:28 PM

you said QBs could win w/ a INT % over 3.0. You said to name 1. I named many.

Fact still remains, there are 2 ways to win.

1. Play 3 phases of football.

2. Have an elite all time great QB who carries a team.

We have a young QB, 1 is the only option. 2 has never been option, even for the great QBs when they where young.

You can change what you want to argue 10x, doesn't change this reality.

No one could be efficient doing what Carolina asks of Newton 25 games into their career.....THAT is a reality you simply choose to avoid.



What exactly do you believe Newton is being asked to do in Carolina that Ryan Tannenhill, Andrew Luck, Robert Griffin 3rd, Andy Dalton, Wilson, etc, etc, etc isn't?

Maybe Wilson has an amazing defense, but you think the Bengals, Colts have that much better a team than we do? Miami? Have you seen Miami's receivers?

Efficiency has less to do with what he's running and more to do with execution. And I did state from the get go that the only QB's who are getting that done are usually behind elite defenses. Either way it's an exception to the rule. It's winning the hard way. And there's usually something else going on there. Like for example, how about 4th quarter comebacks? Winning QBs who turn the ball over tend to find themselves in those situations late in the 4th quarter. Eli, Brees, Ben...check their stats. Check their 4th Q comeback wins. Even Garrard. Look at his 2010 season where he went 8-6. 5 of his 8 wins came on the back of 4th quarter comebacks or game winning drives. You realize that? So where is the silver lining for our guy? Sure as hell isn't there.

If you are bad in that category and still winning, something has to give. So look closer. Something or someone is making up for it. Whether you are like Ben or Eli and are a clutch closer, or you have a hell of a defense, there is something that goes along with that, else you are not winning. And once again, even when you are, it's usually despite your play.

Personally I think our defense is pretty solid this year. And if you are referring to offensive scheme, personally I do not believe Chud is incapable of putting together a generic, conventional NFL offense if he believed Cam would have more success running it. I believe we're running the read option to exploit the 1 man advantage and because of Cam's issue as a drop back passer. The read option puts less emphasis on reading defenses and more emphasis on the other team's inability to cover your extra man. Why do you think that is?

Look you can change the offense. You can change the GM. You can fire your ST coach. You can fire Rivera(and we should). You can add receivers. This team is screwed until Cam Newton learns how to play NFL QB. Game management. 4th quarter comebacks. Efficiency. Reading defenses. Late game composure. Etc...

Not asking him to carry the team. But I can ask him not to hurt the team. He still needs to pass in all areas in order for him to achieve that. And right now he has too many holes in too many categories. Anyway I'm done arguing about it man. It's the same old same old. If you don't like stats, like the fact he's 27th in NFL passer rating, or 31st in Total QBR, or efficiency or whatever....just do the eye test when he's in the pocket dropping back to pass. He doesn't pass that either.

#110 Guest_Tom Cat_*

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:59 PM

What exactly do you believe Newton is being asked to do in Carolina that Ryan Tannenhill, Andrew Luck, Robert Griffin 3rd, Andy Dalton, Wilson, etc, etc, etc isn't?

Maybe Wilson has an amazing defense, but you think the Bengals, Colts have that much better a team than we do? Miami? Have you seen Miami's receivers?

Efficiency has less to do with what he's running and more to do with execution. And I did state from the get go that the only QB's who are getting that done are usually behind elite defenses. Either way it's an exception to the rule. It's winning the hard way. And there's usually something else going on there. Like for example, how about 4th quarter comebacks? Winning QBs who turn the ball over tend to find themselves in those situations late in the 4th quarter. Eli, Brees, Ben...check their stats. Check their 4th Q comeback wins. Even Garrard. Look at his 2010 season where he went 8-6. 5 of his 8 wins came on the back of 4th quarter comebacks or game winning drives. You realize that? So where is the silver lining for our guy? Sure as hell isn't there.

If you are bad in that category and still winning, something has to give. So look closer. Something or someone is making up for it. Whether you are like Ben or Eli and are a clutch closer, or you have a hell of a defense, there is something that goes along with that, else you are not winning. And once again, even when you are, it's usually despite your play.

Personally I think our defense is pretty solid this year. And if you are referring to offensive scheme, personally I do not believe Chud is incapable of putting together a generic, conventional NFL offense if he believed Cam would have more success running it. I believe we're running the read option to exploit the 1 man advantage and because of Cam's issue as a drop back passer. The read option puts less emphasis on reading defenses and more emphasis on the other team's inability to cover your extra man. Why do you think that is?

Look you can change the offense. You can change the GM. You can fire your ST coach. You can fire Rivera(and we should). You can add receivers. This team is screwed until Cam Newton learns how to play NFL QB. Game management. 4th quarter comebacks. Efficiency. Reading defenses. Late game composure. Etc...

Not asking him to carry the team. But I can ask him not to hurt the team. He still needs to pass in all areas in order for him to achieve that. And right now he has too many holes in too many categories. Anyway I'm done arguing about it man. It's the same old same old. If you don't like stats, like the fact he's 27th in NFL passer rating, or 31st in Total QBR, or efficiency or whatever....just do the eye test when he's in the pocket dropping back to pass. He doesn't pass that either.


this post doesnt pass the huddle ignoramus test

#111 MaineManPanther

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:12 PM

The "Myth" is that Cam Newton is under radically more pressure than almost all other QB's in the NFL. This is just not true, even using your statistics. I never said that Carolina's offensive line was one of the best in the NFL. Far from it. I like to stick with official NFL stats...sorry, I'm old school. That is why I used "hits"...because I believe it actually gives a very good indication of how often a QB just has to unload the football before he is sacked. You can add hits and sacks together and it still gives a very accurate representation of where Carolina stacks up.

As far as the bottom 10 being "nearly indistinguishable (outside of AZ...clearly the worst in the NFL by far...and yet Kevin Kolb has better numbers than Cam Newton, but that is another story), I simply stated it because it is true. Look at the numbers.

I stated that several teams had (according to your numbers) fewer pressures than Carolina. It is true.
I pointed out who several of those teams were.
I then pointed out several teams whose numbers are virtually identical to Carolina's. Once again it is true. More pressures, true, but VERY, VERY few more.
The chart you posted is available for everyone to see.
There can be no subterfuge on my part.

By the rationale of the majority of the posters on this forum Cam Newton should, at least, have better numbers than Kevin Kolb, Sam Bradford and Blaine Gabbert...yet, mysteriously, he does not....I will not even get into a conversation about the fact that (according to your numbers) rookie Andrew Luck has been pressured almost exactly the same amount as Newton...it is too easy...and too painful....



.


Disagree about hits. We are essentially basing 15 or so plays out of 300 do judge a line's performance. I don't see how that's wise.

Look at the top ten worst lines. Only Ryan, a elite 5+ year pro is excelling. All the others are at best, underperforming and at worst horrid. This is not a coincidence. The fact that Newton (who is 1 1/2 into his career with a poor line and underperforming ground game) isn't distancing himself from certain Qbs at this point, isn't worrisome yet, given the situation that he's in.


#112 CRA

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 05:19 PM

What exactly do you believe Newton is being asked to do in Carolina that Ryan Tannenhill, Andrew Luck, Robert Griffin 3rd, Andy Dalton, Wilson, etc, etc, etc isn't?

Maybe Wilson has an amazing defense, but you think the Bengals, Colts have that much better a team than we do? Miami? Have you seen Miami's receivers?

Efficiency has less to do with what he's running and more to do with execution. And I did state from the get go that the only QB's who are getting that done are usually behind elite defenses. Either way it's an exception to the rule. It's winning the hard way. And there's usually something else going on there. Like for example, how about 4th quarter comebacks? Winning QBs who turn the ball over tend to find themselves in those situations late in the 4th quarter. Eli, Brees, Ben...check their stats. Check their 4th Q comeback wins. Even Garrard. Look at his 2010 season where he went 8-6. 5 of his 8 wins came on the back of 4th quarter comebacks or game winning drives. You realize that? So where is the silver lining for our guy? Sure as hell isn't there.

If you are bad in that category and still winning, something has to give. So look closer. Something or someone is making up for it. Whether you are like Ben or Eli and are a clutch closer, or you have a hell of a defense, there is something that goes along with that, else you are not winning. And once again, even when you are, it's usually despite your play.

Personally I think our defense is pretty solid this year. And if you are referring to offensive scheme, personally I do not believe Chud is incapable of putting together a generic, conventional NFL offense if he believed Cam would have more success running it. I believe we're running the read option to exploit the 1 man advantage and because of Cam's issue as a drop back passer. The read option puts less emphasis on reading defenses and more emphasis on the other team's inability to cover your extra man. Why do you think that is?

Look you can change the offense. You can change the GM. You can fire your ST coach. You can fire Rivera(and we should). You can add receivers. This team is screwed until Cam Newton learns how to play NFL QB. Game management. 4th quarter comebacks. Efficiency. Reading defenses. Late game composure. Etc...

Not asking him to carry the team. But I can ask him not to hurt the team. He still needs to pass in all areas in order for him to achieve that. And right now he has too many holes in too many categories. Anyway I'm done arguing about it man. It's the same old same old. If you don't like stats, like the fact he's 27th in NFL passer rating, or 31st in Total QBR, or efficiency or whatever....just do the eye test when he's in the pocket dropping back to pass. He doesn't pass that either.


Tell me which of those QBs have RBs that have provided zero yards in a game this year.....whose RBs average 60 yards a game on the ground for them?

Cam is asked to be an offense after only a rookie season.....name a QB in NFL history asked to provide the offense Cam is at this stage of his career....

#113 MadHatter

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 05:40 PM

If you need stats in order to form your own opinion because you can't do it yourself with your own two eyes, then you are nothing more than a robotic imbecile that can't think for himself with very little knowledge of what is really going on. It isn't rocket science. Anyone that is football knowledgeable, or at least has a brain, can see with their own two eyes that Cam has very little time to set his feet and make throws most of the time. You don't need stats to tell you that.


Dumbest statement I have ever heard. The numbers say Cam has time. But you refuse to accept it because it does not support your biases.



#114 Sloth

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 05:53 PM

Updated OL rankings - 31st in run blocking / 24th in pass protection

WTF SCAM

#115 TonyN

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:37 PM

Updated OL rankings - 31st in run blocking / 24th in pass protection

WTF SCAM


Here is a somewhat different take...clearly not "good"...clearly not a team "strength"...but bad enough to make a "good quarterback" look like Blaine Gabbert or Mark Sanchez...NO WAY...
http://www.nfl.com/s...ole=TM&tabSeq=2

#116 CRA

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:40 PM

Here is a somewhat different take...clearly not "good"...clearly not a team "strength"...but bad enough to make a "good quarterback" look like Blaine Gabbert or Mark Sanchez...NO WAY...
http://www.nfl.com/s...ole=TM&tabSeq=2


Yeah, um.....that singular stat line doesn't make the argument you keep thinking it does.

#117 Nicks To The Colts

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:40 PM

don't worry guys the spinmaster is on it


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