253 replies to this topic

[awdeansr]

Except for Native Americans....everyone here is the result of an influx of foreigners.

You would be surprised at how many of us have native American Ancestry.

[ladypanther]

You would be surprised at how many of us have native American Ancestry.

I have Native American ancestory. I am part Cherokee. I doubt those who are resenting a foreign influx are Native American. Nor do I think they are trying to protect Native American heritage.

[NanuqoftheNorth]

Why should we move? My family fought in every war, I served in the military. Do you really want the people who fought for our freedom to move? Striving for freedom is not treason! If you believe otherwise you are the Anti American, you should move to Iran!

No need to leave, you are more than welcome to stay and try and affect change through the ballot box.

If you think 8 years of President Bush, who (lost the popular vote by half a million votes), started two wars, created a record budget deficit, and presided over an historic economic meltdown was fun, you are sadly mistaken.

The rest of America endured that fiasco, I'm sure you will pull through the next four years just fine.

Reality is, only a subset of those that voted for Romney would endorse your preferred course of action.

I suspect it is actually smaller than those that bothered to sign the petition, as they would actually need to get up and do something to make it happen.

[NanceUSMC]

We all know secession isn't going to happen, regardless of how many online signatures pile up... But let's play the 'what if' game for a moment...

Let's say the 30 (currently more have petitioned, but for arguments sake let's go there) states that have started these petitions reach the breaking point, and secede... To say that the military would simply move in and stop them by force is short-sighted, and assumes a great deal... A civil war in 2012 would be dramatically different from a civil war in 1860...

First off, there would be a split of the current US military, with many current troops returning to their home states (particularly their families)... Loyalty lies more with family than country, and if it came down to it that would be a huge factor in determining those who stayed vs those who left...

Second, to assume the new state militia's would be under equipped is working under the assumption that all those military bases decided to return the US arsenals to them... There are some massive military bases in Ga, NC, Ca, SC, Tx, Va, etc... Those states wouldn't simply give back the equipment... Now whether or not the remaining US could maintain order in those bases would depend on how much of a coup the military had internally... If 60% of the military turned on the US (equal % to the number of states petitioning to leave), things would get interesting quickly...

Third, who controls the oil? I haven't studied the list of states closely, but those I've seen are some massive oil producing ones...

Of course none of this is going to happen... There have been multiple threats of secession, and even some legislation proposed to do so in state governments, all to no avail... It's not going to happen...

But it does show that there are some (not all of those who signed, but some) people out there with a genuine fear of the state of the nation... Now keep in mind that fear may or may not sound rational to you or me, but to the person who is experiencing it, it is genuine... And for many of those with genuine fear right now, it's very often simply a result of misunderstanding the actual situation... Telling these people, who are already in irrational mode anyway, that the military will be there to make sure they don't leave is simply adding to the paranoia... Telling them that you hope their state goes through with secession just makes you look like an ass... Instead, ask what the specific fear is, and when you realize that it's simply a misunderstanding of facts, discuss them... The country is divided, yes, but it's not doomed... The election is over, and we don't all agree, but it's time to put aside those differences and try to build bridges, not walls...

[Davidson Deac II]

This kind of talk is really not all that unusual.

“In an age of polarized politics, in a 50-50 nation, some people are going to be unhappy with any election outcome,” said John Dinan, a political science professor at Wake Forest University. “Some of those people are going to be really unhappy and want to blow off steam somewhere.”

Dinan said any idea that online petitions could get to the point of real secession talk is “ludicrous.”
“It is not to be taken seriously in any way,” Dinan said. “In 2000 and 2004, we saw similar expressions of unhappiness on the losing side and discussion about secession or alternatives to secession. In 2004, it was always loose talk about liberals who were unhappy with the outcome.”
What’s different now is that people go online with their frustrations, Dinan said.
“It is a combination of a polarized electorate and an online world where people don’t just tell their family, they do it on a public forum.”

[NanuqoftheNorth]

We all know secession isn't going to happen, regardless of how many online signatures pile up... But let's play the 'what if' game for a moment...

Let's say the 30 (currently more have petitioned, but for arguments sake let's go there) states that have started these petitions reach the breaking point, and secede... To say that the military would simply move in and stop them by force is short-sighted, and assumes a great deal... A civil war in 2012 would be dramatically different from a civil war in 1860...

First off, there would be a split of the current US military, with many current troops returning to their home states (particularly their families)... Loyalty lies more with family than country, and if it came down to it that would be a huge factor in determining those who stayed vs those who left...

Second, to assume the new state militia's would be under equipped is working under the assumption that all those military bases decided to return the US arsenals to them... There are some massive military bases in Ga, NC, Ca, SC, Tx, Va, etc... Those states wouldn't simply give back the equipment... Now whether or not the remaining US could maintain order in those bases would depend on how much of a coup the military had internally... If 60% of the military turned on the US (equal % to the number of states petitioning to leave), things would get interesting quickly...

Third, who controls the oil? I haven't studied the list of states closely, but those I've seen are some massive oil producing ones...

Of course none of this is going to happen... There have been multiple threats of secession, and even some legislation proposed to do so in state governments, all to no avail... It's not going to happen...

But it does show that there are some (not all of those who signed, but some) people out there with a genuine fear of the state of the nation... Now keep in mind that fear may or may not sound rational to you or me, but to the person who is experiencing it, it is genuine... And for many of those with genuine fear right now, it's very often simply a result of misunderstanding the actual situation... Telling these people, who are already in irrational mode anyway, that the military will be there to make sure they don't leave is simply adding to the paranoia... Telling them that you hope their state goes through with secession just makes you look like an ass... Instead, ask what the specific fear is, and when you realize that it's simply a misunderstanding of facts, discuss them... The country is divided, yes, but it's not doomed... The election is over, and we don't all agree, but it's time to put aside those differences and try to build bridges, not walls...

Well said.

The reality is, unless America runs out of beer and the four major sports leagues go on strike simultaneously, there is little likelihood that the vast majority of Americans predisposed to secession will rise up and demand anything. If they do, the only ones that will need to worry about their safety are Anheuser Bush and the league commissioners.

[rodeo]

Why should we move? My family fought in every war, I served in the military. Do you really want the people who fought for our freedom to move? Striving for freedom is not treason! If you believe otherwise you are the Anti American, you should move to Iran!

I'm not the one complaining about the results of the popular vote of an election and threatening to secede, so why exactly would I move?

[twylyght]

You really really want someone to call you a racist, don't you? Why don't you start another thread asking people to for some reason

Why insinuate it when you can man up and just do it? The reason why cries of racism no longer holds water is because it is used as a means of derailing a sticky discussion rather than describing an actual condition.

As Gospodin simply won't stand by his convictions, I have pointed out his farce for what it is. He knows it at some level. He has just deluded himself into thinking that he is pulling the wool over everyone else's eyes. If you believe the lie yourself, you convince a lot of people along with you. Others simply see it for what it is.

At any rate, this call for getting the government out of our lives is so strong now that people are signing petitions to simply opt out wholesale rather than try to work within a system that is irreparably broken. Gospodin and his ilk would rather we didn't talk about that. He'd rather point to an antiquated and tired tactic of guilty by association, however ridiculous that association may be.

As for anyone referring to those "bat poo" libertarians/conservatives that simply wish to live our lives without coercion, here is the simple and plain truth to what we believe (as libertarian philosophy goes in a nutshell):

Not supporting something does not give one the right to criminalize it. Supporting something does not give one the right to compel others support it. This is the essence of liberty that is long lost on Americans in their hubris of moral standing, intellectual sloth, and oceans of narcissism.

[rodeo]

oh the conservatives just want the government out of our lives.

let's check the roster of states with amendments banning gay marriage yeah?

[twylyght]

oh the conservatives just want the government out of our lives.

let's check the roster of states with amendments banning gay marriage yeah?

Way to take the quote out of context....

here, let me help you with reading comprehension:

"As for anyone referring to those "bat poo" libertarians/conservatives that simply wish to live our lives without coercion"

[rodeo]

The secession petitions have nothing to do with wanting the government out of people's lives, and everything to do with sour grapes over losing.

[Daddy Uncle]

see you later. Texas is basically mexico anyways. we don't need it

[FurdTurgason]

oh the conservatives just want the government out of our lives.

let's check the roster of states with amendments banning gay marriage yeah?

Most people don't see that as government intruding on their lives, as it was never allowed before. Most people go to church, and their pastor tells them it's on the same moral plane as bestiality and kiddie porn.

[twylyght]

The secession petitions have nothing to do with wanting the government out of people's lives, and everything to do with sour grapes over losing.

So you know what I believe in now? And I suppose I should simply discount years of what I believe just because of your assertion?

Believe it or not, there might just be people that don't believe what you believe. Maybe (I know, this sounds just crazy) there ARE people that think that actual liberty is something worth believing in? How did the saying go? Give me liberty or give me death?

How long before the entity that you wholeheartedly support does something you vehemently disavow but compels you to obey or be punished? Yeah, oppressive governmental authority is great as long as it conforms to what you want. Thing is, when it turns on you (and it eventually will), you will have relinquished all power to stand against it.

That oath for defending the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.... yeah, take a chance and read the Constitution and THEN get back to me on how that is playing out.

[gospodin shuttlesworth]

And there is no mother fuging way any soldier or marine would fire on an American citizen who is peacefully leaving the union.

ahahahaha

soldiers do whatever they're fuging told and oh btw soldiers have willfully done far worse things than "fire on an american citizen who is peacefully leaving the union" in every single war in american history without question